Courage & Conviction: A Bold Conversation with Riley Gaines

My dad, we were at a— he had a business trip in Memphis, of all places. And so he asked me if I wanted to go with him. I was probably 7 or 8 years old at the time. And we're in the hotel room. And he says, Riley, you know, grab the little hotel robe, come downstairs. And I'm like, okay, thinking I'm about to get like a manicure or something. I'm like, this is awesome. No, we go down there and it's in the middle of December. And he pulled— we go down to the pool, which is outdoor pool, and he pulls back the little plastic cover that's over the pool and he says, jump in. And I'm like, Dad, I'll literally die if I jump in that pool. And he says, no. He says, this is your first mental toughness test. He says, you're going to jump in, you're not going to chatter your teeth, you're not going to shiver, you're not even allowed to say I'm cold. And so I'm sitting there like wanting to call my mom because my mom would never let this happen. Uh, but I ended up jumping in the pool. I tread water for probably 5-ish or so minutes, uh, and finally he let me come out. And I, I'm sitting there so confused, you know, why did you just make me do that? He said, I want you to realize there's no such thing as being cold. He said, there's such thing as absence of heat, but, but, you know, cold is just a mindset. And once you can realize that, you'll be stronger for it.

Everyone, Dr. Josh Axe here. Welcome to the show. Today I've got a special guest, Riley Gaines. Riley is a 4-time SEC champion in swimming, and she is leading the women's rights movement for sports. And we're going to talk about a lot today. We're going to talk about faith, we're going to talk about growth. We're gonna— about— we're going to talk about standing up for what you believe in and a whole lot more. So Riley, welcome to the show.

Well, thank you so much. I am happy to be here.

Well, one of the things, you know, I think that we start off talking about is, is that I graduated— got undergrad degree at University of Kentucky. So did you. Now I'm gonna date myself. Mine's probably about, you know, 18 to 20 years later. I graduated in 2003.

I was 3 years old at the time.

Wow.

So I graduated in '22.

Okay, '22. So, so, you know, a little bit of a— a little bit of an age gap there, but we both have that in common. And we're both Nashvillians. And so you're kind of the north side of Nashville, I'm on the south side of Nashville. But, uh, was excited when you agreed to come on the show and, and share a little bit about, you know, your passions and what you're up to.

Oh my gosh, absolutely. Uh, and hopefully we can both agree that Nashville is the best city in the entire country, and we can both say Go Cats. That's right. No one here is going to be singing Rocky Top, which is always a good thing.

Yes. You know, I, uh, I, I love Nashville. We talked about there's so many people moving here that we know constantly here. We talked about people like Nick Baier and others who are, who are moving here. And so a lot of great people. And, um, you know, on this interview, I wanted to talk about some of what you're up to fighting for women's rights, but I also want to get into some other things. I want to talk again about your faith. I want to talk about, uh, you just signed a deal to do a new podcast. So I want to talk about sort of your future and what you're excited about and how to change the world. But the first thing I wanted to get into, and it's something that I've noticed and really admired about you, is that you're not a person that is focused on chasing the money or chasing followers or fame. You know, when I look at a lot of times when people say, you know, when you look at Gen Z, the number one thing Gen Z wants to be are influencers. And a lot of times the goal is, hey, I want to have 100,000 followers on Instagram or YouTube or, you know, that's sort of the goal. But for you, what I've seen is, is that you said, hey, this isn't right. This thing in the world, it's not right. I want to do good in the world. And sort of the following and some of those other things started following you. Tell me sort of my assessment of that and how true that might be.

Well, you are certainly right. This stance that I have taken, it doesn't come with, with money or any of the things that I think people think of when they see someone who's on the news doing these things. No, what this comes with is, is really vitriol. It comes with death threats. It comes with people showing up to my house, on my doorsteps, hate mail, drones flying above my house. Gosh, I've been punched. I've been spit on. I've been held for ransom for 4 hours where these protesters demanded that I had to pay them money if I wanted to make it home to see my family safely again. So that's certainly not pleasant by any means, but you're exactly right. I think we're at a time in our country, really the world, where people are desperate to hear the truth. They're hungry to hear the truth, common sense really. And so it blows my mind that now I have, just as you said, for simply taking a stand for what I believe is right and fair and just and moral, I have. I've built this platform with, I mean, millions of followers, which is crazy, again, for simply saying the most basic of things. And so what I've seen since taking this stand is that the following, uh, it certainly follows the, the stance that you take. And if you do it the other way around, clearly you're not in it for the right reasons. Uh, and I think what we see throughout this, this country is if you're not in it for the right reasons, uh, you can crumble pretty quickly and easily. But if you have truth on your side, and again, common sense, and logic and reasoning and science and lived experience, in my case, then it's, it's really hard to tear you down.

Yeah. You know, I, I, I tried to think about this as the approach of a dad. Now, Tim, a girl dad, we just had our, you know, I know I introduced you to Chelsea and our newborn came in 4 days old. And so I've got 2 girls and I try and put myself in the position of if I were a dad watching sports, watching my daughter compete in something like high school sports, and if there is a biological male competing against them and In some cases, when you're talking about certain sports, whether it be soccer or others where I've seen this, you know, an, an actual case of harming my daughter unfairly, I mean, I'm not okay with that. And so I think that, you know, common sense says this isn't okay. Somebody who's thinking with any level of morality and ethics has to say this isn't okay. And one of the things that's sort of blown me away about this whole debate is, is that somehow it's become political when generally, why would it be political? It's just generally, we know it's unfair. For a man to compete in women's sports. Why do you think this has become such a political topic when really it shouldn't be political at all?

You're exactly right. That's what I initially thought. I thought, you know, there's no way this issue becomes political. Of course, I knew legislation would help curb a lot of these problems. You have to put policies in place. But I thought this was something that both sides of the aisle would kind of champion and take on because like, like we've discussed, I mean, it's fairly common sense. But that is not the way that this issue— really, a lot of the issues surrounding this gender ideology movement, that's not the way these have gone. It has become completely partisan with the, of course, conservatives typically at least partisan in terms of our politicians. I don't think it's partisan among the general public. Yeah, I do believe the general public still acknowledges— every poll shows at least 70% of Americans agree that allowing men into women's sports is wrong and harmful to women and, and the rights that we so long fought for in sports especially. But if you just see how our politicians vote, this has become partisan. Uh, at the federal level, in the U.S. House, the Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act was introduced, which would just uphold Title IX. And for those who don't know what Title IX is, it's a federal civil rights law that prevents discrimination on the basis of sex, which ultimately gave women the opportunity to compete. But this bill, it fell entirely on party lines, meaning 219 Republicans voted in favor of protecting women and girls in sports, and all 203 Democrats, every single last one of them, voted in opposition of protecting women and girls in sports, which just kind of shows you this issue, uh, it's, it's become kind of like this political pawn. It's a big chess game to our government, to the people leading this this country, which is a pretty, pretty scary thought. Yeah, think about it. Um, and that's what— again, it's, it's a lot of identity politics, people playing into this, which is sad because ultimately it's us as women who have become collateral damage in the process.

Yeah, you know, one of the things I was trying to do as a clinician is— and I try to do this in my functional medicine practice, I try and do it today, and as I've studied psychology— is saying I want to get to the root cause of the issue. Okay. So, you know, if I have somebody come in with, with, with high cholesterol or diabetes, for instance, I know the issue is not that your blood sugar high. The issue is, is that you're eating too much sugar or grains that break down into sugar. And so there— or there's a nutritional deficiency, but there's a root cause of this. When you think about the issues today of somebody believing that this is okay versus not okay, well, what is sort of your diagnosis of the problem? This is the— this is the actual real deep heart of the matter?

Money, to put it quite bluntly. That's absolutely what I believe this is. Speaking, you know, about the NCAA, they don't want to lose federal funding. They don't want to deal with lawsuits, which I think shows how cowardly the people leading this country— again, the people in power like the NCAA, a very powerful organization— it shows you how cowardly and really morally bankrupt these people are based off conversations I've had with people within the NCAA, probably. So for context here, there was a big conference where the NCAA was announcing their NCAA Woman of the Year, to which I was nominated for, which is— this award is the most prestigious honor for collegiate female athletes. But NCAA Woman of the Year was not exclusive to just women because Leah Thomas, who again is formerly Will Thomas, who swam 3 years on the men's team, at University of Pennsylvania before deciding to switch to the women's team, where ultimately he ended up winning a national title. He was also nominated for NCAA Woman of the Year. So I went to this conference and I was in this room with, with all the, the athletic directors in the nation from Division I, Division II, Division III. I started having conversations with these athletic directors and every single one of them, every single one, came up to me and said, you know, thank you for doing what you're doing. Keep going, keep fighting, keep pushing. Even the president of the NCAA, who's now actually stepped down— there's a new president— but former president Mark Emmert, who released a public statement saying he unequivocally stands in his decision to allow Thomas to swim with the women because he claims it was based in evolving science. That's what he says publicly. But privately, he tells me to keep going, keep fighting, keep pushing, as if he's not the one I'm fighting against. So I believe a lot of this is, um, it comes down to money. Even if you look at, for example, a commonly known example is what happened with Bud Light. Of course, they had this advertisement commercial that I don't believe aligned with their— what I would have thought would have been their target audience. They lost $27 billion, and their next commercial was a big burly man on a motorcycle with the camo camo.

And then just last night, I'm watching Monday Night Football, my family, big Vikings fans, and I see Peyton Manning and Emmitt Smith now as sort of their rebrand.

Yeah, yeah. To rebrand. And it's because they lost a lot of money. So I believe money is driving a lot of this movement in corporate America, in the media, within our government, of course, within academia. So there's a lot of places where I think money is playing a pretty big role.

I mean, it's so sad. And I think that just says something about just society in general moving into sort of the more materialistic, you know, and I think, you know, obviously I know you and I both read the Bible. I think we both, you know, share the faith in looking at, you know, you know, the love of money is the root of all evil. And so it's a very good diagnosis on your part of the root of this evil is money. And so, you know, I think if people really decide to stand back and not, not be political and say, where is this coming from, they'll see that. And I think they'll see that with a lot of things, whether it be some of the pharmaceutical companies and targeting children. And there are a lot of organizations out there that have that similar thing. And that's really sad. You know, as we talked about politics, I'm curious about Who are some of those people in politics? It could be the president, former presidents. It could be candidates or other people that have really fought for women's rights.

So it's interesting because, of course, now we've seen, as discussed, we've seen this really feminist movement flip on its head because the same people who claim— who champ— who claim to champion women and who claim to really pride themselves on fighting for women's rights which historically is the left, especially the Biden administration. What they're doing now is the exact opposite of that. And we're seeing Republicans, of course, seize the opportunity to, to stand with women. Republicans are historically painted as woman haters, right, based on different abortion things and other things, protecting the sanctity of life that deems them as woman haters. And so now, of course, we've seen this split. But in, in the sports world, where I think it's actually more interesting, You have people like Megan Rapinoe, who, again, really has— a phenomenal athlete, has done a lot for women in this space, especially within women's soccer, fighting for equal pay, equal access, equal resources, all the different things to which she succeeded in a lot of those realms. Now Rapinoe is actively— of course, when she's retired. Yeah, of course, after she's retired. Now she's actively fighting for male inclusion. In women's sports and women's spaces. Same thing with Billie Jean King, who is a phenomenal— was a phenomenal athlete and really who we have to accredit Title IX to. Same thing, actively fighting for male inclusion. Neither one of those athletes would have had the opportunities and success that they had had there not been women's sports. I mean, we have to ask ourselves, why do we have— why do we even have women's sports to begin with?

Yeah.

If we're going to sit here and say men and women aren't different and men should be able to take away our opportunities.

One of the things that— and listen, I can, I can do this to my own field more than others, but I know how long some of these hormonal changes take. And first off, they will never— you can never take a biological man and give them enough hormones to make them fully, fully female in terms of decreasing their testosterone, their bone density, their muscle mass. Those things have been established for many, many years. And so I'm incredibly disappointed in many of the physicians who basically are bought out financially, as you said, follow the money, and who are saying things like, well, this is, you know, uh, approving this or saying there's really no difference because it's absolutely ridiculous. If you go and test biological male versus a biological female, again, someone like you mentioned, Leah Will Thomas, a very similar thing. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's unfair in sports. And I'd like to see someone like Megan Rapinoe go and play in the male soccer league and see how she does.

They've done this, uh, and the U.S. Women's National Soccer Team lost to like a 15-and-under boys high school soccer team 12 to nothing or something crazy. So that right there. And Venus and Serena Williams, who of course are phenoms.

Yeah, amazing.

I mean, women's tennis, of course, but, but as women, female athletes, I mean, they're phenomenal, incredible. And of course, the things they've achieved are bar none. But in a match against, I think he was the 203rd ranked male tennis player nationally. They got beat in a blowout. Not to mention, this male played 18 holes of golf before, was drinking and smoking in between sets, and they lost 6-1 in a matter of minutes. And that's not because— of course, that's not—

of course it's not because Venus and Serena are the greatest female, you know, you know, but we're different of all time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, one of the reasons why I was so excited to do this podcast, it, it was part of it had to do with Um, as I mentioned before, I just admire what you've done in taking a stand. But also, part of the show here that I always try and focus on is not just having an impact, but having an impact for the good. And I don't think there's enough awareness around this. I think today everybody wants to be famous, again, in this world of social media, saying— or a lot of people today thinking, I want to have an impact. But the big thing, again, I try and encourage people to really focus on is, is I, I kind of think about it like this graph of You have your ability to impact, which is tied to your skills, your gifts, your talents God's given you. And you have good, which is tied to your good character, like love and compassion and justice. And then we've got over here sort of evil. And my point there is, is that, you know, we want to do two things. We want to grow in character and we want to do the greatest with the gifts God has given us. And I think if we're, if we're doing things the right way, it needs to be tied to first and foremost the good rather than the total amount of impact. And today, again, it seems to me like on social media in particular, people are posting because I want to get views, not I want to impact people positively. What do you think, or why do you think, that you've been wired— from what I perceive— wired differently? So many people, I could say, you know, your age, but my age as well, just people in general, when they're posting, they're saying I just want to get followers versus saying no, I want to impact the world for good. So why are you wired that way versus many other people are not?

A couple of things, actually, 3 main things I can really think of that I believe sets, sets me apart from a lot of my peers, my teammates, one of which is simply playing sports my whole life, having that discipline and that structure really forcing you to develop as a leader, developing your confidence, your security. I believe I attribute a lot of my confidence and leadership skills to playing sports. Uh, secondly, having a strong family foundation has been such a blessing in my life, and as I get older, I realize it more and more. Having two parents that love each other very much, having many siblings— we're all very close— having four grandparents, of course, grandfather, grandmother on both sides, my mom and my dad's, they're very, they're very much together and very much love each other. And being surrounded by that in a world where that's doesn't seem to be the norm anymore, has been such a blessing in my life. And I realize that now. And of course, third is being— growing up strong in my faith. I've always been— I'm very fortunate again to have a family who took me to church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, even when I didn't want to go. Being 10 years old and probably the youngest one in the congregation, bar my siblings by 70 years, was certainly not pleasant at the time. But now looking back, I realize how lucky I am. And again, having that foundation, but really this past year on my own to a degree without my family's influence, having kind of this spiritual awakening. I think those three things have led me this to this path of not just success in my sport, but for standing for, for what's right, uh, seeing an injustice and being willing to call it out, being willing to say the emperor wears no clothes, which we've reached a point where people aren't willing to do that now for a variety of reasons. But I still see it worthwhile to stand for what's true and again what's right and what's just.

Yeah, you mentioned spiritual awakening. What are some of those things maybe you've been awakened to through this?

So I feel like I've just seen very clearly how God works. I feel— I mean, I pray every night for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for direction and protection. And it's so crazy because I truly feel as if he's provided me with those things. That being said, just as clear as I can, can really see God moving and feel him, I feel like I can just as clearly see how his opposition works and how he moves. Because we know Satan moves through deceit, and we know he moves through manipulation, and we know he moves through affirming lies, affirming delusions. And that's so much of what we see going on in this world right now. Again, broader than, of course, just the women's sports issue. Uh, we see so much of that, and, and once you can recognize it, I believe it's— as a Christian myself, I believe it's undeniable that that's what we're going through. And again, reading the scripture, reading the word, uh, Paul warns us several times throughout Acts and Romans and different places throughout the Bible that we will reach a point where bitter is seen as sweet and dark is seen as light and evil is seen as moral. And again, I, I just don't understand how you could see what's happening around us— I mean, really see, not just look at what, what's being posted on social media or believing kind of mainstream media if you can think independently, look at what's going on around you, read that, those words and disagree. Because I believe, again, like I said, it's just undeniable that that's what we're going through. Yeah.

You know, one of the things I think that I've recognized over the years as well is that there's a lack of sort of moral, ethical and biblical literacy in the world right now compared to the past. You know, when I, when I was growing up, I was fortunate enough to have a parent parent who really sacrificed and paid for, and paid for me to go to a Christian school when I was younger. And I went to a public high school, but my mom really wanted me to understand a lot of the biblical events and the morals taught there. And then my parents also put me in Sunday school, which I don't even know if churches hardly ever have Sunday school anymore. And then Wednesday night service. So I was always going and being influenced in that way. And today, as I've looked at Pew Poll, you know, Pew Research and Gallup polls and things like that, the biblical literacy has really declined in terms of what we're learning morally. So kids today are learning about things like, you know, certain, you know, gender studies in schools versus learning about the Bible, like what's going to actually lead to a more flourishing moral society. And so one of the things I've noticed is I've had conversations with certain people that are younger or, or, you know, I'm using— the reason I say younger is, is that I do think that it's, statistically think they've decreased over time. But I've started to realize that they're just not— sometimes people don't even— aren't even aware of the biblical events and stories and morality, and they're not even aware what the Ten Commandments are. Like, you shouldn't envy. Like, that's not even, you know, or steal. And so, you know, I'm curious, you know, you had mentioned for yourself education was what was such a— such an important thing. What were some of those things maybe that your parents taught you growing up, your grandparents, or, or pastor, that you feel like really have stuck with you today that have allowed you to be such a, you know, such a, such a fighter and influencer? Gosh.

Oh my gosh. Well, I'm very, uh, genetically blessed too, shall we say, because I have two parents who played at the highest level. Yeah, my dad played football, my mom played softball.

And your dad was professional football player, right?

He was.

Who'd he play for?

He played for the Eagles. Wow. Uh, all my uncles played. So, you know, my oldest uncle played 12+— 10+ years with the Seahawks. Uh, my other uncle played with the Rams and the Chargers. So, so I come from a family of sports. Um, and of course my parents never pushed me to, to play sports, but it was in my, my blood. I love playing sports. I love competing. I love winning, really. I, I think I hate losing more than I love winning, actually, now that I think about it.

You're probably an Enneagram 3 or 2.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Uh, but one of the things that actually two things I can think of off the top of my head that my, my parents, specifically my dad, said throughout my whole life. He would always tell me anytime I went to him to complain about something, whether it be I was sore or whether it be something going on in school, whatever it was, anytime I just wanted to vent, which typically you feel like as a, as a daughter you can go to your dad and do. No, not with my dad. He always told me two things when I would do this. First, he would say, "Put up or shut up." You know, you can complain all you want, but unless you're willing to do something about it, then it's merely just complaining. And Riley, no one likes to be around someone who's complaining. And then after that, he would tell me, "Just keep chopping wood." You know, just put your head down, just keep going, just keep chopping wood. And that rings even now, of course, as I've kind of transitioned out of competitive sports, at least I still am, and still very much into fitness and activity and different things. But as I've transitioned out of competitive sports, both of those things he would say— again, put up or shut up and keep chopping wood— I found to be so relevant and necessary to hear in my life now. Um, and just tons of things like that. I think back to actually the first time, uh, well, I'll kind of lay out the story here. My dad, uh, we were at a— he had a business trip in Memphis, of all places, and so he asked me if I wanted to go with him. I was probably 7 or 8 years old at the time. And so I decided to go with him, uh, and we're, we're in the hotel room and he says, Riley, you know, grab the little hotel robe, come downstairs. And I'm like, okay, thinking I'm about to get like a manicure or something. I'm like, this is awesome. Uh, no, we go down there and it's in the middle of December and he pulled— we go down to the pool, which is outdoor pool, and he pulls back the little plastic cover that's over the pool and he says, jump in. And I'm Dad, I'll literally die if I jump in that pool. And he says, no. He says, this is your first mental toughness test. He says, you're going to jump in. You're not going to chatter your teeth. You're not going to shiver. You're not even allowed to say I'm cold. And so I'm sitting there like wanting to call my mom because my mom would never let this happen. But I ended up jumping in the pool. I tread water for probably 5-ish or so minutes. And finally he let me come out and I'm sitting there still confused. You know, why did you just make me do that? He said, I want you to realize there's no such thing as being cold. He said, there's such thing as absence of heat, but, but, you know, cold is just a mindset. And once you can realize that, you'll be stronger for it. And I have tons of stories just like that of my dad really instilling in me— both my parents, but again, my dad was the one who did the kind of torturous child abuse type things that my mom would never let happen.

This is what dads are for, you know, to, you know, toughen you up and bring, bring on that sort of, uh, you know, sharpening in that way.

I love it. Totally. But I have tons of stories just like that, and I think really, again, I attribute so much of my willingness to stand firm and unapologetically to my parents and the structure of a family.

You know what, I think that there's something going on. Well, you and I both know there's something going on in society today where it's— where there's this idea that somehow the traditional family isn't good. My experience has been it's the most— I— anyone who gets to experience having a mom and a dad in that traditional way is an incredible blessing and it gives you something that God, by God's design, of course, you know, what are your thoughts on, you know, some people who might think that, that, that, that isn't the reality? You know, like, let me ask you this, this way. What would you be missing if you didn't have the mom you had in life or you didn't have the dad you had in life?

Gosh. I think to one, be able to firsthand see what a gentle and passionate and really what that love looks like. And I was so blessed to be able to see that. And again, I didn't realize that when I was younger, because a lot of the times it's subconscious, you don't really notice it. But once, I guess, kind of to my dad's point, you notice the absence of it. And once I got to college,. And having a lot of friends, of course, from, from all over the country, all kinds of different political views, from all kinds of different families, and understanding what they saw in their house every day, uh, and how that differed from, from me and my life.

Mm-hmm.

Oh my gosh, I was so grateful for it. And just as you said, it, it's, it's perfect by God's design. Uh, this is exactly what God envisioned when he created man and woman. Um, and I'm very lucky to have that. And of course, there's a direct correlation now with, I think, the rate of divorce, different factors going on that are separating marriages. And we see this correlation as to— I mean, it spans across, but crime, homelessness, how that's affecting younger people. And now, of course, how that's a broader picture, how that's affecting our society.

You know, how does your dad feel about all the things that have gone on? So like, for instance, because I know how I would be as a dad, I'm curious. Your dad, how he's felt as he saw a biological male competing against you in, in, in sports and everything that's going on? What— how does he feel about all this?

So it's, um, it's funny because specifically, if I take you back to that, that national championships where we were, uh, forced to compete against this male, we also had to share a locker room with this male, which for— to paint the picture here, which I'll keep it G, but this is a 6'4" fully intact male who's exposing male parts inches away from where we were undressing. And so we weren't forewarned that this would be the arrangement that was had until we were actually in that locker room. And so I remember, of course, it's feelings of utter violation, it's feelings of betrayal, it's feelings of— I mean, it's truly, it's a traumatic experience. And not even necessarily because of what we were forced to see or how we were forcibly exploited, but it was traumatic for me to know just how easy it was for those people who created these policies to totally dismiss our rights to privacy. But anyways, after being in that locker room and again seeing this, all my teammates and I, we were, uh, appalled by this, I think, to say the least. I immediately left the locker room and called my dad and told him Dad, there's a man in our locker room and we don't know what to do. We didn't know who to go to or what to say, or we didn't know what to do. And so my dad told me, he said, Riley, I'm coming down there and I'm gonna handle this myself. To which I had to say, like, Dad, like, you'll actually go to jail. I know you, and you'll actually go to jail. Yeah, please don't do that. We can, you know, I'll handle this and how, whatever way I can. Uh, but, but We need more strong men, I think, kind of like my dad, not to fulfill and send, um, to put himself in jail, but, but we need more strong men willing to defend their daughters. And my dad is certainly one of those. He's incredibly proud of me, uh, the stance that I've taken, again, the things that I've accomplished, who I am as a person.

Yeah.

Which again is a large part due to both my parents.

Yeah, that's so great. I can't imagine. I'm thinking about our 3-and-a-half-year-old Chelsea and I are definitely, I think, envision and hope for it. And I can say this, you know, again, as a dad of knowing, like, when I look at my daughter, the thing that I want most is that she's a virtuous human being, right? She's compassionate, but she has courage, you know, all of those things. And so I, you know, I, I think, I think being able to— and I also can imagine being in his position and wanted to just, you know, um, uh, wanting to defend my daughter. And so that's, you know, I think an incredibly tough position. But I think obviously you've done such an amazing job of saying— of taking sort of that Christlike approach of saying, I'm going to do this using, using your word as a sword, you know, in that way and fighting with your voice. And I love that. I think it's so, so amazing. You know, I want to talk for a minute about leadership. And so I know that you've been part of doing some leadership talks, part of the Leadership Institute. I'm curious, as is how has this helped you grow as a leader going through, through this whole process?

Gosh, tremendously, uh, really tremendously. I, I think back to myself at the beginning of, let's say, a year and a half ago when a lot of this, this issue of allowing men into women's sports became real for me, and I decided to take a stand, uh, the first time. I knew I had to do something. I really felt guilty. I felt compelled. I felt responsible. For kind of standing idly by for a few months when, after we heard about this, it was happening. I felt so guilty for doing nothing. And so once I decided that I was done waiting for someone else, because truthfully I was, I thought someone else would do something. I thought surely a coach or, or a parent or official or someone with political power or some other swimmer, I was hoping someone would do something. And then it slapped me across the face. How can, how can you, Riley, expect someone to save you if you're not even willing to save yourself? You know, this, this, you can do something. And so I look back, I, I, um, the first thing I really did to take a stand was testify in Kentucky legislature. They had introduced their Fairness in Women's Sports Bill, which would of course mean you just compete in the category that aligns with your sex, your, your, the sex you were born with. Um, and so I go to Kentucky and I testify And I went back the other day and looked at my first, my first testimony, my first speech I ever did. And oh my gosh, I was so apologetic. I was basically apologizing for feeling the way that I felt. I was, you know, I had to prerequisite every sentence by saying, you know, I don't wish any harm on anyone and I support, but, but I didn't even really like reading that. I'm like, why was I apologizing for how I felt? Why was I on defense when really I should be on offense here? So I have developed so much as a person, as a leader, and that's what this country needs. We're in dire need of leadership, whether that be— again, if we look at these presidents of these universities recently, which, which shows you how far academia has gone, we have presidents of what used to be considered prestigious universities who aren't even willing to say that calls for genocide go against their codes of conduct. But don't you dare call a man a man, because that is grounds for expulsion and that's hate speech. But calls for genocide is not. Again, leaders of this country, we have declined in strong leaders. I think it's urgent that we develop leaders, whether that be, of course, a big push of mine has been fighting for, or trying to develop leaders in my generation. Because just as you said, which I think was really interesting and got me thinking, a lot of the times these young people, they don't even necessarily know right from wrong because we have been deceived. Which is pretty dangerous. You know, we have people, a whole generation full, who don't know the word, who aren't properly educated. Or at least understanding historical fact, which is incredibly important to prevent it from repeating itself. We have a whole generation of this, which is dangerous when, you know, I think people often say it's our generation that's going to ruin this world or whatever they might say, but I believe it's the generation who came before us who actively and purposefully, I would say, deceived us.

Us.

And so trying to, to, to, uh, spread his word first and foremost, his message, his gospel, um, whether— but I— but we do that through objective truth, uh, spreading biological reality and of course biblical truth.

You know, I think a lot of it comes down to mismanaged priorities. You know, I think that there are a lot of people, whether it be Gen X or baby boomers or people that have, you know, millennials and Gen Z, if we're talking about generationally, that said, you know what, we're going to try and keep up with the Joneses. Our biggest priorities, we're gonna parents leave the home. We're going to have both parents leave the home, start working. We're going to put our kids in daycare, and we're going to let society, we're going to let the schools, we're going to let media start to raise our kids rather than us saying, no, this is— it's not our third priority, it's not our second, it's literally our number one priority. I think Chelsea and I really think about this as well, and I think that I, I try and be sensitive around this topic. At the same time, I try and always speak the truth around this of of, you know, when, when we talk about, for instance, you know, uh, successful female entrepreneurs, one of the things that happens is that's part of wisdom is knowing what the trade-offs are. Okay, well, if you go work full-time and the husband works and they're in daycare, well, there are studies showing those kids have a higher risk of ADHD and mental health disorders and not being able to regulate their sympathetic and parasympathetic nerve systems and later on trouble, not, not as not as successful at learning. So my point there is, is saying, and, and that's only one small part of it, but also saying, hey, it's our job as parents to get you in the best possible school we can, whether that be a public school or a private school or Christian school or homeschool. And we're going to do our best to make sure that you're trained up in character and virtue and understanding morality. And, you know, my wife's family did an amazing job of this. Her mom and dad would sit down on Wednesday nights and at dinner And they would teach their kids. I think a lot of parents today, they want their kids to be their best friend rather than saying, "No, I want to be the best mom or dad I can have." And to what we talked about earlier, I think one of the things that I've really realized as it comes to parents, I've studied a lot of Chinese medicine and there's a lot of principles actually that sort of overflow into this. And that's, there's something called yin and yang. And basically, the yin is the feminine, the yang is the masculine. And what happens is in and parenting, you want to have somebody that is nourishing. That's the mother. I'm nourishing, I'm loving, I'm compassionate, that side. And then you also want the father who is discipline and justice and challenging you. That's the father's job. Like, yeah, hey, little Riley, hey, I'm gonna have you in, you know, in, in 40-degree water in December for 5 minutes because we have to do that. But it's this beautiful blend of the masculine, feminine, of nourishing and challenging. And when those things can happen together it creates the most compassionate, loving, but just and strong human being possible. So all that being said, one of the big issues I do see definitely is parents saying, we're gonna give the government, we're gonna give educational systems, we're gonna give the media that responsibility, and we're gonna go out and try and make money. And, and I don't think that the intent was not necessarily evil. I think the intent was, I wanna pro— we wanna provide for our kids. We want them to have a bigger house or even a second home or to pay to go to this thing. But it's still not— shouldn't be the number one priority versus saying, no, listen, we'll actually sacrifice some money in order to sow into our kids, spend time with our kids. And I think what happens too, this is something I've noticed, when parents try to be their kids' best friends when they're younger, they end up not being as close later on in life because those parents didn't create structure and discipline and actually bless their kids versus the parents saying, no, we are going to be great parents. Well, later on when those kids get in their 20s, their kids do become their best friends. Like, I've seen that with my parents, with Chelsea's parents, with our family. And so I think a lot of times people have that backwards.

I totally agree. And it's interesting, this whole yin and yang concept, because they complement each other.

That's right. So perfectly complete together.

Yes. One without the other, uh, of course there are still good things, but, but it's, it's— and again, it goes back to the family structure, you know. If you I think a lot of times, and again, there are times it works and it works beautifully, but a lot of times when you just have one parent doing the one thing, it's very hard for one parent to play both roles perfectly. Um, but yeah, they, they complement each other. Um, so I think that's incredibly interesting. And, and I, I think we've reached a point too where as a society, and why we see this, um, this movement really taking precedent, taking control, is because we've emasculated men, and it's a feminist movement that's, that's done it. Yeah, we've emasculated men. We've deemed masculinity as toxic, as bad, as this undesirable trait for men to possess. But, but as said, we need strong men. But you couldn't be more, more correct in terms of, uh, how our priorities are not in check as families, uh, which all of this stems from the home, um, and, and transcends beyond that. And that's why our education system has gone the way that it's gone, and our government. Uh, I mean, it's almost as if this— we've allowed this to, to take over the public square in quite literally every realm. Yeah. Um, which is, is not good for, for society, for families, for Christians, really.

Yeah. You know, I was reading this article, it was a, a, uh, an article by a Yale University professor. Now typically If I would read an article by a university professor, I would think it would be likely just completely ridiculous and inaccurate when it comes to psychology and morals. But one of the things he pointed out is, is that you can have— if empathy is not balanced with other things, it can actually do great evil in the world. Of course. And it talked a lot about also about compassion is actually very different than empathy. And I thought it was good because I think we have a lot of our leaders today, we've been trained in this more feminine virtue. Of empathy of, hey, I'm going to feel what you feel. And they've decided to, in the case of somebody like a male wanting to compete in women's sports, thinking, oh, this person is, you know, they, you know, they, they have this thing that they can't change, sort of this, you know, mental issue they can't change. And if we don't let them just do whatever they want in this entire world, then we are being somehow mean to them. But I think the thing that a lot of people miss here is, is that the most compassionate thing would be to do is do what's best for God's design. Hey, listen, you were designed like this. And hey, actually sticking, doing your fourth year as a swimmer. And even though you're not at the top, you know, you'll learn a lesson of sportsmanship. You'll learn a lesson of— there's a lot of other lessons to learn. And I see this as well. I think a lot of people don't understand to have great character, you have to not only have love, but you have to have truth, right? Or you have to have compassion, but you also have to have justice. And so without that, Um, you know, you actually become— it becomes a vice. It actually becomes that thing to destroy you. So I see this a lot of times today as people all talk about empathy, empathy, empathy. But also, I think it works both ways. Like, yeah, there's empathy for someone in your situation and also being, you know, committed to the truth.

So if you think about it, it's what Jesus did so well, is a balance between grace and truth. Because, I mean, he washed the feet of prostitutes. Uh, but at the end he said, go and sin no more.

Yeah.

Uh, and I think if you're all grace, no truth, just as you said, then you're, I believe, merely incompetent. And if you're all truth and no grace, then you're self-righteous. Uh, so it does have to be a balance between those things. And you're— that, that's what's lacking. Uh, people are, are struggling with how to balance these things. And, and it goes both ways. On both sides, uh, we have people who are all truth truth, who, who are lacking the compassionate, the grace, peace. And then we have the— of course, what we see, I think, more prevalently is all grace and no truth. And they're putting feelings, feelings over fact, uh, which has led us to again where we are. But I couldn't agree more, and it's something we should all challenge ourselves to do, including myself. I find myself sometimes, uh, not doing the best job of giving grace. Whether that be within my personal relationships, you know, my husband, my, my family. Uh, it's hard sometimes to put yourself in another person's shoes, but everyone should be challenged to, to develop. It's a skill, I would say. It's certainly a skill set to, to be able to maintain those, those two things. But everyone should certainly try.

Yeah, I love that. Who are some of the people— as you've been going through this, who are some of the people that you admire the most, and why is Gosh, if I think about this space, what I've realized is courage is such a rare trait.

I wouldn't have thought that previously, especially again when it's something so common sense. I would have figured a lot of people would take a stand for what's right, but that was a naive thought. And so I truly admire courage now. And when I see someone being courageous, I believe it's incredibly admirable and inspiring. And so one person who, um, has done just that, her name is Sage Steele, who's an ESPN reporter, uh, who I think a lot of her, um, when I first saw her courage shine through was during COVID and a lot of the BLM movement and different things. And as someone who is mixed herself, biracial herself, I, I think she saw a lot of what was being pushed through ESPN, which is of course Disney-owned, uh, and she was like, hold on, I don't think I really agree with that. Same thing with the vaccination thing, uh, and of course then most recently with this issue ESPN was pushing of how stunning and brave it is for men to compete in women's sports. She saw all this happening and she's like, hold on, this isn't right, this isn't what I as a Christian believe in, and she took a stand. For truth. I won't say she took a stand against anything. She took a stand for what's right. And after watching her do that, that inspired me so much. And there are several just like her. David Pollack, who is an ESPN reporter, has now done the same thing. Michelle Tafoya, who was an incredible reporter. I have a lot of admiration for those in media because I know how corrupt and how really just illogical, irrationally driven a lot of the, the whole media movement is. So I have a lot of respect for people who can, who can and have taken a stand.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. You know, I think that, you know, I felt this way personally as we were going through sort of the COVID mandates. I had a level of, wow, there are so many people who lack courage. And I think that, that was a challenge. At the same time, I saw this, you know, in a good way, God sort of separating the wheat from the chaff and allowing sort of those people that were going to go ahead and, um, stand up for what's right, start to shine and stand out. I had this pastor who I was talking with and talking about, um, you know, that season we were in, in the midst of that, and a lot of the other things as you've gone through and we were going through in the world. And he said, you know, my mindset has been, what a blessing to be able to be a light in these situations, because he said, that's when leadership shines. He said, you know, if Abraham Lincoln, for example, wouldn't have gone through the Civil War, we may hardly know who he is today, or Martin Luther King Jr., many others. And so I think that one of the, one of the things that I've tried to change my mindset about is, hey, you know what, uh, what a blessing to be able to stand up for what's right and be that person. And again, I see, I've seen you just, you know, be a bright shining star in that way. And so I'm curious as if sort of you had maybe even that shift of thought of rather than trying to stay away from that cancel culture or that controversy instead of, you know, starting to embrace it?

Gosh, of course. And I certainly see that now. And that's becoming more evident day by day, especially as people, you know, parents come to me, female athletes themselves, coaches, really just concerned citizens who are concerned about the future of our country, the future for their children. They'll approach me and say, you know, thank you for doing what you're doing. You've inspired me. And that makes it all worth it. Worth it. That makes all of, again, the terrible things that I've described that I've had to endure from taking the stand, that makes it worth it. And for the longest time, I didn't feel prepared. I didn't feel equipped. I didn't understand anything about our government. I knew we had 3 branches, but that's literally all I knew. And when I had to take, you know, my Comms 101 courses, which was the public speaking courses in college, my face would turn the color of a tomato when I had to to speak publicly. Um, but I realized pretty quickly that God doesn't— he doesn't call the equipped, he equips the called. And if he brings you to it, he will certainly bring you through it. And once again, feeling his hand on it, his protection, again, the way he's provided me with strength and wisdom and direction and those, those different things, um, you know, I mean, it's, it's like Esther, right, which is kind of cliché and a lot of people say it, but for such a time as this, uh, just as God equipped Moses, who led the Israelites out with Aaron and his staff, just as he equipped Joshua, who he promised a victory over the Canaanites, and just as he did equip Esther before she was brought before the king, uh, so will he equip us if he brings us to something. And it was disobedience to not follow his calling.

Yeah, and I'm sure we've had this time in our life where— I know that I have— but at the same time, you know, I try and think about there are probably a lot of other people that are being called, but they're not answering the call, right? And so I think that one of the things I would encourage everybody to do and think about is, is like, is God calling you? And what is he calling you to? And typically, the bigger the mountain, you know, the greater the opportunity for, for God to shine and for you to be a hero in the situation. And, um, you know, one question I would have for you, just for everybody listening, is, is how, how do we show courage? Like, like we talked about this earlier, I think a lot of times people are saying, I want to build up a following, or I don't want to get— it's one of two either I want to build a following for myself or I don't want to get canceled. Okay, what, what is your advice on the best approach to take to impact the world for good as you have?

Well, first of all, speaking to the, the whole I don't want to get canceled thing, I thought this— it's a very natural thought, you know. I don't want to be ostracized. I don't want to lose friends or lose my opportunity to get a job one day for, for simply saying what I think is true. And those threats are real a lot of the times. But what I've realized since taking the stand that I've taken publicly, I was so wrong to think that, because really the support is tenfold from, from everyone. People who you wouldn't think would necessarily agree with you agree with you. Again, it's just about being willing and able to say the emperor wears no clothes. Yeah. Which we certainly need more of. I think a lot of people conflate— they confuse courage with fearlessness. Of course, fearlessness is lacking fear. You're not scared. But courage is having that fear, but still willing to do what is right. And that's what this is about. Like I said, I'm not gonna lie, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. There are a lot of scary things. It's a lot of name-calling, which is what we do in second grade. First of all, there's a lot of name-calling. Uh, there's, like I said, I've been physically attacked, all— I mean, all kinds of crazy things. Uh, but what's scarier to me than those things is not standing firm in the truth. Because you look at any society that starts to deny truth, again, the most basic of truths at that, man and woman, the essence of humanity. You look at societies that have— that do this, uh, China, Cuba, Russia, Germany, Venezuela, North Korea. Yeah. And look at what, what that society and culture looks like, because it's not pretty. And that is scarier to me than any name someone could call me, and not standing, of course, for biblical truth.

Yeah.

Because we, we know the outcome there. And why and how I'm able to do this with a smile on my and very lighthearted is because we already know who wins, because the Bible tells us who wins. And that's the best and most reassuring— that, that, that's what keeps me grounded.

You know, there's a C.S. Lewis quote that I love here, and it's, "Those who did the most in this life thought most about the next life." Yeah. And it's, it's that sort of eternal mindset of like, you're, you know, you're, you're, you're doing your greatest good Knowing you might be persecuted here, but knowing that, you know, there are eternal rewards and, you know, you're called to please God, we're called to make Earth a heavenly place. And so you're driving towards doing all those things. And it's so good. It's such a good message. I appreciate so much what you're doing. A couple more questions for you. What is maybe the— as you've gone through this or earlier in your life, maybe there's a piece of advice that sort of helped set you up and think differently or prepare you for this. But what is one of the best pieces of advice you've ever received?

I'm trying to think here because a lot of the advice I received, especially growing up, of course it never pertained necessarily to these cultural issues that—

it could be anything.

Yeah. But what I'm seeing is it translates into that perfectly. And so the— a lot, a lot of the advice that I was given, I thought directly related to swimming or to my sport and how to make me better. And for example, my favorite Bible verse of all time is Romans 8:18. Romans 8 is my favorite chapter of the Bible, but Romans 8:18, which is, for our present sufferings aren't worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed in us. And I loved this verse when I was younger because I applied it to swimming. Uh, our present sufferings, right? It was the practice, it was the work that you put in, it was the sacrifices you had to make, but it paled in comparison when you broke a record or won a championship or got a best time or whatever that was. But that verse our present sufferings aren't worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed in us is so much more applicable now than it ever was. Yeah, when I was swimming. And of course, the present sufferings are the things I've, I've described or alluded to many times. Again, the petty personal attacks, it's, it's the, the people commenting on your social media. Um, but it pales in comparison, uh, when you know what you're fighting for, when you know who you're fighting for, really. Um, and so that's certainly my, my favorite Bible verse, but I would say a lot of the advice I've received from my coaches growing up, um, it's translated perfectly into my life now. And again, it's given me the, the leadership and the reassurance to stand firm, uh, and unapologetically unwavering.

That's so good. You know, uh, Daily Wire had this question, or they did a documentary, and they asked the question, what is a woman? How would you answer that question?

Easily. A woman is an adult human female. I've been— a big part of my activism and advocacy now is— we mentioned this, this issue shouldn't have become political. And so I'm garnering support from, from both the right and left and introducing new pieces of legislation, one of which got passed here in our home state of Tennessee this past year, which is called the Women's Bill of Rights. Rights, which I can't even believe it's necessary to legislate on what a woman is. But we've reached a point where it is. We have a sitting Supreme Court justice who can't even answer what a woman is because she claims she's not a biologist. Well, guess what? I'm not a veterinarian, but I know what a dog is. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Anyways, so, so got this bill passed in 4 states— again, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. Lots of work to be had there. And it defines what this bill is. Sorry, it codifies and defines the word woman. So, for example, in Oklahoma statute, the word woman is used 584 times, meaning there's 584 times for unelected officials and bureaucrats to go through the back door and reinterpret this word to mean what they want it to mean, which is what we saw happen at that national championships, is they just redefined woman to mean anyone who wants to be a woman. or says they are a woman. But that can happen in these 4 states now that this has been passed in. And it defines woman as adult human female, and then further goes on to define female as someone with the, the capabilities to produce ova or eggs.

Yeah.

And of course, it includes for all the different loopholes in there of— well, people will throw at you, well, what about intersex individuals? Or what about people, who can't have babies, are they not women? It, it accounts for all that and all the different, um, different amendments and things, resolutions, uh, in the bill. So, but yes, adult human female. Long answer.

Well, long answer but also very short answer. Yeah, it's very, very, very, very easy to determine there. Uh, last question for you. For somebody who wants to have a positive impact, what's your best advice for them?

It's easy to get bogged down. It's easy to be discouraged. And again, I'm not going to say I'm perfect. And I do find myself on some days, it's, it's a fleeting, it's a fleeting feeling. There are days where it's, I am down. But I think my number one piece of advice is don't get discouraged. A lot of times we feel like we're fighting this uphill battle, especially if you look at certain states, you know, people who live in California, as it pertains to a lot of these, I would call them common sense issues, where these kind of left-leaning states have fallen on the wrong side of that. It feels like an uphill battle, but we need people to stay and we need people to fight. We need people to be firm, to be bold, to be courageous. And again, I know it's not easy, but to make a positive impact, you have to be willing to have the conversations. You have to be willing to, to do what you believe is right under any circumstance, regardless of the backlash or opposition you could potentially face. Uh, you have to be willing to, to do what is right, and again, moral at that, because that's, that's what's lacking, is people's moral compass. If we only had more people willing to do the moral thing this country, really the world, would be a much better place.

Yeah, I mean, having a moral compass, as you said, it's something that's missing today. And those people that do have that moral compass, and this is something, you know, parents need to start teaching their kids. Yes. Uh, it's something pastors need to start teaching the church congregations. You mentioned leadership earlier. I think there's this thing of missing and talking about what's relevant and what's moral and what's right in schools and churches and government, a lot of different areas. And so that's why I'm so grateful that you're here to help do that. That and help so many people. Um, I actually have a few more questions if you don't. So, so one other thing I wanted to ask you about is, if I were to ask you, what, what is your purpose and your why? Like, why are you doing so much of what you're doing now?

Gosh, my why, you know, I think about, um, I think about my younger sister who is the Tennessee state champion in gymnastics, uh, being married for a year and a half. I think about my future daughter who I can only, I can only hope to have one day. That's, that's who we're fighting this for. I also think about, of course, the women who, who came before me, who fought relentlessly so I could have the opportunities in sports that I was able to have. And of course, the present female athletes, specifically talking about this issue, the present female athletes who are effectively silenced through different means. However, again, they're the governing bodies or the universities or the people in power, however they can keep them quiet. They're doing it. It's working. Um, I'm fighting this for them who don't feel like they have a voice. Being a voice for the voiceless, uh, is what I'm trying to do and what I feel like I, I have been doing. Because a lot of this, as said, uh, I've approached this very selflessly. It's not about personal gain. It's not about— it's not about financial benefit. It's not about moving myself up in the political world, because who in the world would ever voluntarily want to work in politics? It's not about any of that. Uh, it so— it really truly is about doing what's right for the right thing. And that right thing to me is the next generation. Uh, that, that I think is the most important why we fight this.

It's so good. You know, one of the interviews I saw you do was Jordan Peterson. I love so much of what he, he does and teaches. Uh, how was doing that interview with, with Jordan? Is he someone you followed and that you've learned from over the years?

Gosh, he's become a great friend now and really someone I look to for advice. Uh, it was funny because we did this interview, he was in Portugal, and so the time differences and things, uh, of course we were working around his schedule. And so that interview was like at 2 in the morning our time. Oh wow. And so I was already nervous to be analyzed by Jordan Peterson. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is, this is terrifying. Um, but also at 2 in the morning, I'm like, I'm not awake for this. I don't know, like, I, I can't think, my brain's not firing. But truly, he's become someone who I really look to for advice, just someone who is philosophically sound, who's someone who I believe weighs both sides, the pros and cons of things. And so he's been really phenomenal. And of course, he agrees on this issue, like, look, this is, this is crazy. This is wild. We even have to be talking about this. And so he's been a great ally and friend in this.

That's so great. What are some, some things you do to help yourself grow? Maybe podcasts, you like to read some favorite books. What are some things that you do?

I definitely do a lot of reading. Um, I find myself, and I've, I've always been this way since elementary school, uh, I really enjoy non-fiction books, historical books. Call me a nerd, but I really do, because I think there's value from, from learning from the past. Yeah, whatever that might be. I mean, you could even read, let's say for example, a World War II book right now, and you would find contrast, I would say, to the self-proclaimed Greatest Generation versus what we're seeing now. And if you read that and compare the differences, like, if you think about the 1940s, we had men lying about their age, saying they were, they were older than what they really were to enlist and fight for this country that they love so much. And now in 2023, of course, 80 years later, we have men who are lying about their sex so they can get into women's sports. Not to dilute the— the— yeah, but, but it's just you can see those contrasts when you read non-fiction books. And so I, I spend my time, I do a lot of that. Um, some different podcasts, people I like. I really like Allie Beth Stuckey, who is a strong Christian She's a strong woman. I really, I really like her. She's— I always listen to her stuff. Megyn Kelly, she's interesting because I don't know if she's— she kind of veered for a minute on some issues, but now I was like, hold on, this is crazy. And so she's really great. So yeah, that's— I would say reading is a lot of what I do.

That's so great. What are some of your habits? You know, just regular rhythms you have. I know one of the things that, again, I heard Jordan Peterson say this when he was interviewing his podcast for your age. You're incredibly mature, having an incredible impact. What are some of your personal growth habits?

So something I do every day is work out. That's a big part of me. It's a big part of— I believe, you know, it gets your brain moving. Of course, it keeps your body healthy, which I think translates into how you think, what you say, how you feel when your body feels good. So I work out every single day, whether that's running or lifting. And I'm very fortunate to have of, like I was, I was mentioning about my family, uh, every day my family works out together. And so it's really my mom, my grandma, my dad, my older sister, uh, and it's so fun. And so I, I think keeping it fun while also working hard is, is, uh, it's always interesting. It's a good time. Um, even this morning, for example, we all worked out together. Um, and so definitely that, that's a big— that's, I would say, a habit, a routine of mine. Keeping a routine, I think, in general is important maintaining schedules. At least it works for me. Yeah. And I certainly appreciate routine. My diet is important to me. What I don't— I won't say I eat perfect because I certainly have a sweet tooth. And growing up a swimmer, you always have a swimmer's appetite. You can eat whatever you want. But now that that's over, diet is important. Sleep is important. All of those things in terms of schedule. Um, but that, that's kind of probably what I would say my, my habit is. Yeah, it's maintaining fitness, I would say.

Any spiritual habits, other sort of—

of course, uh, I wake up and go to sleep every night and pray first thing, last thing I do. Um, I of course read the word. Um, my husband and I, we have started a devotional together, which I think is important because is, um, you know, speaking to, to my husband, he's from England where faith isn't as, as prominent there as it is here in the Bible Belt where a lot of people go to church. Of course, we're not all perfect Christians, but, uh, there's, there's a lot of churchgoers here. But in England, that's, that's not really a thing. I think only 5% of people go to church in England. Uh, and so coming to the States, um, we've we've wanted to grow together, um, and that's certainly what we're doing. And so we're doing a devotional right now, believe it or not, it's actually called Stand Firm, um, and kind of guiding us through a lot of the things that we're seeing culturally happen now, but again, within our own personal lives, within our own relationship, within our own relationship with God, uh, how we stand firm. And so that's been, um, it's been fun to grow in that way as well.

That's so great. I love that. Well, one of the last things I want to say is, you know, I've got a— as I told you earlier, I've got a 3-and-a-half-year-old. You got to meet my 4-day-old here. You know, I would— Chelsea always talks about this. We love— we want our daughters to be brave, courageous, compassionate, make a difference in the world. And so you're one of those people that I'm excited that they can model in the future. So thanks so much for all that you're doing for women, for my daughters, for my family. And appreciate you taking the time to come on today.

Well, congratulations to you. Uh, very, very exciting stuff going on in, in your house. Um, but thank you. That's exactly like I said, that's who we fight for. So I very much appreciate you and what you do.

Awesome. Well, thank you. Well, hey everybody, thanks so much for, uh, for being part of the podcast today. I want to say thanks so much to Riley Gaines for sharing her wisdom with us today. And if you're watching on YouTube, hey, please leave a comment. Let us know one of the biggest pieces of wisdom that stuck out to you or something that Riley said. Would love to hear from you on that and get your feedback as well. Hey, if you're listening on iTunes or Spotify, hey, don't forget to subscribe. And if you love this episode, share it with a friend. Thanks so much for listening. I'll see you next week.