Dr. Peter McCullough on mRNA Vaccines, Myocarditis, & Hydroxychloroquine

¡Hola! The 2026 Chevy Equinox is more than an SUV.

It's your Sunday tailgate and your parking lot snack bar.

Your lucky jersey, your chairs, and your big cooler fit perfectly in your even bigger cargo space. And when it's go time, your 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen's got the playbook, the playlist, and the tech to stay a step ahead. It's more than an SUV. It's your Equinox. Chevrolet.

Together, let's drive. You can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omni-Shade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your summer at Columbia.com to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome. Columbia, engineered for whatever.

Putting off replacing your window treatments because you think it's complicated? At Blinds.com, we spent 30 years proving it doesn't have to be. And right now, our Spring Black Friday Sale makes it easier than ever. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we've gotcha. Free samples, real design experts, and zero pressure. Just help when you need it. Shop up to 45% off sitewide. Huge savings on doorbusters. Plus a free professional measure now during the Blinds.com Spring Black Friday Sale. Rules and restrictions apply.

I was so frustrated going through COVID because I was working with people and getting them on specific diet and supplements and seeing good results. I know you were seeing incredible results with all that you've done. I just thought, well, there are literally people dying right now because our government is supposed to be the greatest protector of the people, is keeping this information from them.

In my mind, I was thinking something this contagious we're all going to get. Yeah, it's going to be unavoidable.

Yeah.

But, you know, no one came out from the public health agencies and said, listen, get ready America, we're all going to get it and we need to avoid hospitalization and death. No one said that. There's multiple papers showing some people who get COVID actually turn HIV positive. So there was something about the spike protein that was very unnatural, like why is it identical to a segment of HIV? Then all the information comes out of Wuhan, China, and the House, uh, subcommittee investigations on this. The spike protein was engineered Engineered. Engineered. It's not a natural protein. It's engineered. They collaborated and they made an indestructible spike protein.

Dr. Fauci, correct me if I'm wrong, in the 1980s, he was very involved with research around HIV. Yeah. Is there a difference between getting the COVID vaccine and being exposed that way versus getting it naturally?

Yes, in two ways. The religion goes like this: humans are susceptible to infectious diseases inherently, but through the brilliance of science and vaccinology, through the brilliance of mankind, And man can improve upon God's creation. Yeah. Man outdoes God with vaccines. But the vaccines aren't perfect. So for them to work, for this really to work, everyone must take them. Everyone, without exception. And if some people are injured or disabled or even die due to the vaccine effort, they should accept it for the greater good of humanity. That's vaccine ideology. Yeah.

Go further with the American Express Business Gold Card. Earn 3 times Membership Rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels when you book through Amextravel.com. Whether your destination is a business conference or a client meeting, your purchases will help you earn more points for future trips. Experience more on your travels with Amex Business Gold. Terms apply. Learn more at americanexpress.com/business-gold. Amex Business Gold Card. Built for business by American Express.

Pepsi Prebiotic Cola in original and cherry vanilla. That Pepsi taste you love with no artificial sweeteners, and 3 grams of prebiotic fiber. Pepsi Prebiotic Cola. Unbelievably Pepsi.

On today's episode, I've brought on Dr. Peter McCullough. Now, Dr. Peter was a leading voice, medical doctor for places like Fox News, and talking about the truth about what was happening today in terms of the pandemic, myocarditis, mRNA vaccines, and also what to do about conditions like long COVID. We're going to go through today his McCullough Protocol, which is an herbal and a vitamin and supplement protocol. We're going to talk about hydroxychloroquine, we're going to talk about ivermectin and all the natural ways to bolster your immune system. Dr. Mercola, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

Well, I'm really excited to have you on. You know, you were one of the people as we were going through this whole COVID lockdown vaccine debate that I really followed closely, and one of the things that I was so impressed with is how you stood your ground. You were really committed to discovering the truth and telling the truth despite so much criticism from your peers. And so I'm excited today to talk about what we've learned as we've gone through COVID. I'm so excited to, to hear more about what you're talking about as the new cocaine and the new, uh, tobacco today that people are, are getting, and some of your philosophies around that. And it's gonna be a fun conversation. So thanks so much for coming on today.

Can't believe I finally made it on your show. And as introduced, I'm Dr. Peter McCullough. I'm in practice as an internist and a cardiologist in Dallas, Texas, but I'm also trained as a research epidemiologist and have been greatly involved in pandemic response. None of us in the field of healthcare were prepared at all for a pandemic.

Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. You know, I remember really early on, and this was, this was like March, April of 2020 when we, when we started having this sort of first discussions about lockdowns. I went on and did a few podcasts and I got a lot of pushback because my, my reply was, listen, if you have a viral infection, there are some general things that are good for everybody to do. You know, take vitamin D, take zinc, take vitamin C, try elderberry, echinacea, do quercetin. Let's do some of these types of things. Do more soups and bone broth, more fruits, vegetables. Get outside, get lots of sunshine. And I was hammered. I actually had a couple, uh, media outlets write papers on I was being unscientific, there's no evidence for what I was saying. And I thought, wow, this is, this is sort of crazy that this is happening. And so But you probably more than anybody, or as much as anybody, I, I remember watching you in particular, Robert Malone, Marty Makary, and a few others get a load of criticism as well. What caused you to stand your ground and continue to tell the truth about what you knew to be true about mRNA vaccines and what was going on?

Well, let's go to the infection. What we were told from the very beginning and consistently through the pandemic was that the virus was unassailable.

Mm, yeah.

It was untreatable. Do you know CNN never gave an update on practical prevention and treatment? Neither did Fox News, neither did CBS, NBC, ABC. Never.

Wow.

You turn on your local news stations here in Nashville, they never presented a practical segment about what you could do to prevent the infection or reduce its intensity and severity. Not once, despite actually even products becoming available through the Operation Warp Speed that we could utilize, and then an entire array of available over-the-counter nutraceuticals and supplements, nasal sprays and gargles, and then prescription drugs. And so when I looked at this as a treating doctor, I said, really? You know, out of the gate, it's already predetermined that this is untreatable?

Yeah.

And so I set out early on, I was in some communications with others that were looking at this, like-minded, and I went on one National Institutes of Health kind of all hands on deck call And I was impressed by that call. It's actually held by the, uh, NIDDK division of the National Institutes of Health, which I worked with very closely as an academic researcher. And what was being reported was, you know, we're just trying to find out what's going on with this infection. And, and it would— Harvard and all the major institutions were on the call. They said, listen, when people get in the hospital with COVID They are so sick. We're seeing the blood lines clot. Wow. And patients crash. And I got off that call, and I don't think at that point in time at my institution we had any cases. And it was within a week we had our very first case. So a man had flown in from New York to Dallas, became sick quickly, was hospitalized at my hospital. I was at a major academic medical center, and teams went to see him, including some doctors who were under me. And examined him. He was about my age, and he absolutely crashed. He was dead in a couple days.

Mm.

Previously healthy. And I concluded, based on the NIH call in our very first case, I told myself, you know what, the hospital is too late, that this cannot be the venue for treatment. If there's any hope of getting us through the pandemic, we have to look at hospitalization as a bad outcome and death as obviously a bad outcome. So the goal was to avoid hospitalization and death. And in my mind, I was thinking, something this contagious, we're all gonna get.

Yeah.

It's gonna be unavoidable.

Yeah.

But, you know, no one came out from the public health agencies and said, listen, Get ready, America, we're all going to get it and we need to avoid hospitalization and death. No one said that. Yeah, Trump didn't say that. Biden never said that. Anthony Fauci never said that. I mean, think about this. Instead, the message was the opposite. Wear a mask, you can avoid getting it. Stay in lockdown, you can avoid getting it. Wash your hands, distance, you can avoid getting it. In fact, if you get it, let's try to study who you came in contact with. So our government had a huge effort on contact tracing. Let's see who you talk to and see who you talk to, who did you meet with. Who— Wait a minute, all of that was based on a presupposition that you could avoid getting the illness. If it was understood that we were gonna all get the illness, and the serologic studies suggest we all did get the illness, that if that was the case, we would not have any lockdowns, no masks, no social distancing. We were all gonna get it. The goal was to get through it without hospitalization and death.

Yeah, but imagine if they took all that. I remember, and I was, you know, I remember sitting there looking at the TV screens and they have this ticker of how many people are dying per minute, you know, like just constantly. And that, you know, just constantly going on the screens and just thinking, wow.

Wait a minute, wait a minute though. I saw that ticker too. And in fact, I had some patients under my care die. From the time of death to the time I determined the cause of death on the death certificate was about 6 weeks, maybe 12 weeks. How could they instantaneously, minute by minute, have a death count? Yeah, honestly, to that— to this day, I think it's fraudulent.

Well, you know, I had a— I have a friend who's in the hospital system, and they said, yeah, anybody died of anything in some hospitals, every one of them for the most part was chalked up to COVID. He said, you know, I had somebody— he's like, I had people die of what was obviously pneumonia. I had people die of other, other, other events, and it was chalked up as that. You know, one of the first studies that sort of really impacted me was looking at the study that came out on comorbidity and how that was so related to COVID deaths. It was in the 90th percentile.

Well, this is very important. How deaths were counted ultimately was PCR test positive at any time, death at any time. This is very important. So you could have had a PCR test that was falsely positive in, in January and died of a heart attack in September, and the National Center for Health Statistics counted that as a COVID death. Oh, wow. Okay, so if they had those two linkers. Now, in 2023, the National Center for Health Statistics, and it's still on the website today, examined the codification of 1.2 million COVID deaths in the United States, and what they found is at least half of those cases, there's no mention of pneumonia.

None.

Hmm. Zero. So that 1.2 million COVID deaths, which is a standard talking point in government circles, for sure is half of that. It's 600,000. Now, when there's been adjudication in peer-reviewed studies where doctors look at this and say, did they really die of COVID or did they have COVID and ultimately die of a comorbid complication, which you pointed out, that 50% probably comes down to about 10%. There's one study from Italy that got it down to 3%. So as we sit here today, if I was to testify under oath, I would say probably 120,000 Americans died of SARS-CoV-2 infection.

Wow. I mean, that's, yeah, I mean, that's a big difference in 1.2 million.

Right, and so a severe influenza year can be 70,000. In deaths. Yeah. Influenza though is counted the same way. It's test positive for influenza and death of any type. That's how it's counted. There's a series of papers that are published each year. The first author is Tenforde. Notice on this interview, I'm gonna quote the author's first name on multiple studies. Note when you watch TV and you watch Anthony Fauci, Peter Hotez, Sanjay Gupta, they quote no studies.

Right, ever.

Yeah. I will, in this interview, I will quote dozens of them, but 1040 publishes almost every year a summary of the CDC influenza statistics, and importantly, about 15% of influenza deaths are directly due to influenza. Wow. About 85%, so it's the same issue. So the infectious disease mortality is grossly overestimated, based on CDC and infectious disease conventions.

If you were to go back in time, or, or maybe this happened a year after you were already practicing and, and seeing these patients with COVID what is it that you would have them do? Because you said, you know, okay, we need to do something before they get into the hospitals. What are those things, an exact protocol you would typically have people do now if this whole— if there's a whole wave of a viral pandemic again?

Great question. You know, I— what I've done from the very beginning is I have taken the completely accountable approach in what I am proposing and what I'm doing in clinical medicine, and it's via academic publication. So in August of 2020, in the American Journal of Medicine, I published the McCullough Protocol. American Journal of Medicine, I mean, that's right up there with New England Journal of Medicine and Archives of Internal Medicine.. And, you know, it was the lead paper, most cited paper in that journal for years. Pretty important. So in August of 2020, America and the world had an organized protocol to treat COVID-19 with the goal of preventing hospitalization and death. Now, it was immediately picked up by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons and became— which is a credentialed, chartered physician organization nationwide. American doctors tend to be top in their class. And so we had a physician organization by October of 2020 saying, listen, we should treat patients at home. The National Institutes of Health, the CDC, and the NIH, and the White House, and the Coronavirus Task Force never mentioned or cited this paper or this organization and approach, never, as if it didn't exist. So what was it? It was refined over time. But the current state of the McCullough Protocol— it's been copyrighted in my name, not patented, but copyrighted for accountability. It's copyrighted to my name. I'm accountable. I'm accountable. It's been credited with saving tens of millions of lives and sparing hundreds of millions of hospitalizations worldwide. This is how important it is. It's the biggest thing in COVID. Yeah, way bigger than a vaccine, way bigger than a mask. Way bigger than a lockdown. It's treating the problem. So we start at the very beginning, is people come down with COVID rebreathing and reinoculation, and we cited the data on this, was a problem. So the last thing we want to do is have somebody locked down in a, in a bedroom or in a condominium or somewhere where they can't get fresh air. Yeah. So we tell people immediately get outside and get fresh air. And stop rebreathing the virus and reduce that reinoculation. Step 2, nasal sprays and gargles. Very important, very important. There were dozens of randomized trials, prospective, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials that showed immediately starting nasal sprays and gargles, and virtually everything worked, from saline to dilute povidone iodine, to xylitol, colloidal silver. They all worked.

Yeah.

Well, so the principle was the virus was setting shop in the nose, replicating and just overwhelming the system. If you did nasal sprays up the nose twice a day for prevention through the pandemic, worked marvelously. And then in acute infection, we can go to every 4 to 6 hours, several sprays up the nose, sniff it back, spit it out, gargle. We're talking basically a 30-second gargle. Spit it out, just reducing the viral load. You know, there was even an inpatient trial of doing this in hospitalized patients, and they had improved outcomes. The hospitals never offered a nasal spray or gargle at the bedside, never. In fact, the companies began to say, listen, this is the solution. Masks aren't working. We need to use nasal sprays and gargles. So they did the right thing. They did research. And one of the lead companies, the CEO is Nate Jones, and the company is Clear. This is Xylitol-based products, right? So Nate embarks on a series of trials and completes them, demonstrating reductions in viral load and whatever. He puts it on his website. The Federal Trade Commission sues Nate Jones personally and the Clear Corporation under the, the FTC COVID misinformation, uh, law. And immediately when COVID came out, within a few months, there was a COVID-19 misinformation, Federal Trade Commission law. What? How did they know anything was misinformation? How do you judge? How do you judge information versus misinformation? But they knew within a matter of months that anything could violate anything they thought. Yeah, wow. So Nate was sued, his company was sued, millions of dollars hemorrhaged out in legal fees. Nate refused to take the data down from his website because he's doing the studies, he's entitled to do that. And after 4 years in legal wrangling, the Federal Trade Commission with the new Trump administration and 2 FTC officials were released. They wrote Nate and said, "We're dropping everything." Wow. And look at Eric Neputi. Eric Neputi had a nutraceutical and supplement company, but Eric was saying, listen, vitamin D, looks pretty solid. You mentioned vitamin D. Yeah, every single study of vitamin D was positive. Vitamin D, uh, higher levels conferred, uh, improved survival. There was 7 prospective studies showing vitamin D was actually preventive.

Wow.

It actually reduced the incidence of infection. Eric was sued by the Federal Trade Commission, and the award was astronomical, like, you know, in the tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars. Eric's a chiropractor. He goes, "I don't have that money." And so there had to be a negotiated settlement. The government had to be paid. So this went on and on. So the McCullough Protocol started with fresh air, nasal sprays and gargles, nutraceuticals and supplements. So for sure, zinc, vitamin C, vitamin D, quercetin. There was an over-the-counter antihistamine anti-inflammatory famotidine, which is used for GI upset. Huge University of Virginia study, 20,000 people, showed that reduced severe disease. So that was in the McCullough Protocol. So it's— that started up front. Then we, then we included a choice of antivirals. This is very important. Everyone wanted to focus on the antivirals. They wanted to skip everything up front But a choice of antivirals. We said, okay, hydroxychloroquine has some activity. It was about 25% effect size. Ivermectin, when we had enough data that made it to my color profile, that was bigger. That had about a 50% effect size. And there was a very good trial, to quote, by, by Raster and colleagues, who was published in Chest, the best pulmonary journal, where ivermectin continued through the hospital stay reduced mortality by 50% compared to those who didn't get it.

I want to pause here. I'd love for you to just educate and walk us through a little bit more What is hydroxychloroquine? How is it used historically? Why is it beneficial? And ivermectin, how it works as well.

I think there was an undue focus on the antivirals. I really do. Because we were in communication with doctors all over the world. I started a communication system on Google Groups, and there was a doctor in El Salvador who was treating patients, no hydroxy, no ivermectin. Was using really anti-inflammatories, antihistamines, and doing fine. And then there was a doctor in South Africa, Durban, South Africa, doing the same thing. So I knew they weren't essential, but yet there was an undue focus on them. Well, hydroxychloroquine has been used for decades as malaria prevention, and then we used it extensively and still do so in rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus. So it's a wonderful drug. You know, these are generic drugs. And remember, doctors use drugs off their original advertising label. Yeah, we always do. In fact, we pointed to a 2018 FDA guidance on this. I remember, I remember being at a debate with the FDA and one of the medical societies, and we said, should doctors use drugs off advertising labels? And said, for sure. Whatever drug company gets the first advertising label, which are advertising claims, They can't anticipate in the future what we're going to use drugs for. They can't. You know, you know, the drug that has the most off-label clinical uses by far?

Well, listen, I'm going to tell you antidepressants are very high, but maybe that's not the—

oh no, you would never guess. It's actually Botox. Botox has—

oh, I know numerous, you know, of course, reading headache, migraine headaches.

So Botox has far and away the most off-label uses. But the point is, even I remember at our deliberations with the FDA, and the 2018 guidance concurred with this, is that for sure, doctors should use drugs off the original advertising label when they're fulfilling an unmet need. Obviously, SARS-CoV-2 was an unmet need. So no company is going to have a pre-authorized, ready-to-go drug indicated to treat SARS-CoV-2. It's not gonna be there. So hydroxychloroquine was the first, and it had some efficacy against SARS-1, you know, the SARS-1 virus in that first outbreak. And it has some, you know, some general antiviral properties that were sufficient. And then a very important paper was published by Didier Raoult in France, and he's the most published microbiologist in the world. And it was given to Trump and said, listen, it looks like it's dropping some viral activity. So Trump came out and had a press conference Anthony Fauci was there, this was in March, and Trump says, listen, this could be a game changer. And I remember point blank, one of the reporters looked at Fauci and said, listen, if you had a patient in front of you with acute COVID-19, would you use hydroxychloroquine? And Fauci said, I would, preferably in a research protocol, but sure, that was a reasonable answer. That was in March of 2021. By June of 2021, or 2020, I'm sorry, it was March of 2020, By June of 2020, the FDA said categorically, "Do not use hydroxychloroquine." The FDA also did something very bizarre with hydroxychloroquine. It granted it an emergency use authorization. It was so bizarre. I looked at this, I said, "Wait a minute, emergency use authorization," you know, "is a mechanism for new drug use." It's not full licensure, it's new drug use, but prior to this, it was for the military. Like an EUA for the anthrax vaccine or something like this. Like you don't do an EUA for a generic drug that we can use for anything, right? So why did it have an EUA? And then the FDA said, well, it should be restricted for use in the hospital. Well, Henry Ford did a big study of in-hospital use, over 1,000 patients, mortality reduction in those who got hydroxychloroquine. I know because I was one of the reviewers on the paper. But by June, uh, papers were coming in saying, wait a minute, it's dangerous, it's dangerous. There was a paper from Mayo Clinic, I recall, this is dangerous. You— people can have heart rhythm problems with this. And you know, the hydroxychloroquine can affect an interval on the EKG called the QTc interval. And it's well known, doctors understand this. It's rare, it's those who have the congenital QTc prolongation. There's actually a bigger risk in, in some African Americans called G6PD deficiency where they can develop a, uh, hemolytic anemia. But like any drug, we know the risks and benefits.

Yeah.

And we were using hydroxychloroquine, we were having success, uh, but it didn't match the safety and success of ivermectin. So once we had enough data on ivermectin, by December of 2020, ivermectin was in the McCullough protocol. We had published an update in in Reviews in Cardiovascular Medicine. This time I had 56 authors on that paper. I had basically every major doctor and clinic who was treating COVID-19 to weigh in on what a protocol should be. And this was the Cadillac. We had ivermectin, which is derived from the soil in Japan. It has antiparasitic activities, clearly had antiviral activities, and was safer than acetaminophen. I mean, no cardiac concerns whatsoever. There's some minor neurologic side effects, that are very rare, but very, very safe product. And also robust to safety in the overdose situation. If people got confused, if they took double or triple the dose. I know my mom had COVID and she was in a senior home and we got her the McCullough protocol. My wife kind of shuttled it in. Shuttled it in. And we said, "Mom, how are you doing?" We called her every day. We're on pins and needles. Now she's elderly. She's had cancer in the past, she's very frail. And I said, "Mom, we're trying to coach her through the medicines." And I said, "Well, that ivermectin medicine, can you grab the bottle and tell me how much more you have left in?" She goes, "Oh, there's nothing left in here." It's like, whoops. So Mom, I think on day 3, just had an ivermectin overdose, and she's perfectly fine. So the point is, it was a very versatile drug. I mentioned the ICON study published in CHEST, 50% mortality reduction. I am here to tell you, that every single high-risk individual should have received ivermectin on day one. And for sure, if they didn't get any home treatment, they should have received it in the emergency room and through the hospitalization. There was no reason not to do that. Yet, this is astonishing, in— as we are getting success with ivermectin and McCullough protocol, the FDA launched a campaign And so did the American Medical Association. American Medical Association officially announced their campaign on their website. They said, we have a campaign to abolish the use of ivermectin.

I mean, you remember this clip on Joe Rogan where CNN tries to shame him, they change the color of his face and say, oh, he's taking horse dewormer and just try to discredit him the whole—

And Sanjay Gupta comes on, he actually has Sanjay Gupta come in the studio and he schools Sanjay Gupta The FDA puts out a campaign that's just a horse dewormer, what have you. Uh, this is— why would the FDA and the American Medical Association and the entire medical establishment— emails were sent around to these academic medical centers, do not use ivermectin, do not use it. I testified in the—

why did they do that? Well, why do you think? What would—

what would be your conclusion?

Well, I mean, my conclusion is there is a, you know, financial gain from somebody, um, if, you know, if more people are doing— here's a reality of, I know, marketing. It's scarcity. It's like we're saying this is the only option, here is your only option, get this shot or take this pill. And so people don't use anything else. And so this is the one and only thing you can do, you're going to make more money doing it. I mean, that would be my one of my—

I've already told you, the Federal Trade Commission suppressed nasal sprays and gargles. I told you they suppressed vitamin D. The FDA said, "Do not use hydroxychloroquine," and Harvard and Mayo Clinic are writing papers that it wasn't safe. Suddenly it wasn't safe when they used it for decades. Now the FDA and AMA launch a war on ivermectin, and Pierre Kory, who was in our group of early treatment doctors, and I told Senator Johnson to invite him to the Senate to testify, and he did so. Great credit to Corey, by the way, not only on ivermectin, but corticosteroids. He published a book, the best title ever, it's called "The War on Ivermectin." But this got to be so bad that Robert Apter, an ER doctor in Arizona, Mary Terri Bowden, an ENT doctor in Houston, and Paul Marik, one of the most published critical care doctors in the world, they sued the FDA. They said, "You're making false statements regarding ivermectin." And they prevailed. Wow. In the end, wow. In the end, the lawyers for the FDA said, okay, we'll take down all our false material on ivermectin. Our FDA was putting out false information. Then we got to— so we had the antivirals, we had ivermectin, we had hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin. The Russians and the Japanese were using favipiravir. So favipiravir was in the original McCullough protocol. Then later on, 2 years into it, we get Paxlovid, which is, uh, uh, uh, uh, nirmatrelivir and ritonavir, which is a repurposed HIV drug. And then we have molnupiravir, which is a Merck drug. So we had an array of antivirals to choose from. By November 2020, we had monoclonal antibodies. The first one came out by Lilly. These were miracle drugs. I gave really, really sick patients monoclonal antibodies and they improved. And the studies were stupendous. Every time they worked. Every time they worked. So we'd have monoclonal antibodies. There was a paper that came out in Medical Economics indicating the US government bought enough monoclonal antibodies to treat every single American. Yet everywhere you looked around the country, there were shortages. Can't find them, can't find them, nobody had them. Ron DeSantis went nuts. He set up all these clinics.

I remember this.

Yes, can't get them. Why wasn't every nursing home stocked with monoclonal antibodies? Why didn't every single sick patient in the ER receive monoclonal antibodies? They didn't. They didn't. Now, the next drug was corticosteroids. So doctors were examining corticosteroids, and there were papers written, "Do not use corticosteroids. Steroids could worsen the infection." Well, wait a minute, how do we know? We use steroids for pneumococcal infections. We use steroids for shingles, which is varicella zoster. Suddenly we can't use steroids for this infection? Just taming down an excessive inflammatory response. So Ron Johnson, give him great credit, Senator for Wisconsin, was seeing this. And Pierre Corey, who's from Wisconsin, uh, was in New York but ties to Wisconsin, uh, knew Johnson. And Johnson held a hearing on this and said, listen, uh, what are you seeing in treating patients? And Corey said steroids are working. People with acute SARS-CoV-2, as we're treating them, steroids are a part of their inpatient care. They're working. At the time Corey testified in May of 2020, every single society in the world said, do not use corticosteroids. The FDA, the CDC, the NIH, the Infectious Disease Society of America, the EMA in Europe, the TGA in Australia, every single one of them said, do not use steroids. Yet they were working. Within 6 months, every single one of those societies said, Use steroids. Okay, so now monoclonal antibodies, we've gone through this suppression of treatment. Now we're down to simple things. Colchicine, which is a unique anti-inflammatory generic drug. There was dozens and dozens of studies, had positive data, and the largest prospective double-blind randomized placebo-controlled trial ever in outpatient COVID was the Cold Corona trial. It stopped early. Why is it stopped early? This is the best-funded study ever. It was out of Montreal Heart Institute. It's supposed to have 6,000 patients. They end up with 4,000 patients, and still all the data trended towards being a positive study. Why was that stopped? And then we have antibiotics, doxycycline, azithromycin. A published study of deaths due to COVID showed probably at least a quarter of the pneumonia deaths due to COVID had an untreated bacterial secondary pneumonia. Wow. So antibiotics inappropriately used. Okay, now we're getting pretty deep into the McCullough protocol. We're down to antithrombotics. So antithrombotics— the McCullough protocol was the only protocol that said, listen, blood thinners in high-risk patients. Put patients on blood thinners early. Don't wait till a blood clot in the hospital. And then when the Italians did the first autopsy study And doctors were scared to death of doing autopsies. They were afraid they were going to get the virus. They found the lungs were filled with blood clots. So it brought up the most interesting thing. There was a hyperfocus on the oxygen saturation. Do you know the oxygen saturation meter?

Yeah, yeah.

And it was the most interesting thing because I was treating COVID patients and I'd say, wait a minute, the oxygen saturation is pretty low, but you're not that short of breath. So there was a dissociation between the oxygen saturation and the work of breathing. It's very, very important. And I said, "Wait a minute, this is interesting. We don't see that with a consolidative pneumonia or something where the alveoli are filled with fluid. This is different. It must be the capillaries must be plugged with micro blood clots." And that's exactly what the Italians found. So that was the key role, and aspirin has a minor effect, but the prescription blood thinners, bigger effect. That was a huge understanding. So what was going on was patients would go to the hospital, they're not that short of breath, they check an oxygen saturation, normal should be 94%, they'd see somebody in the 80s and say, "We need to put you on the ventilator." Oh, wow, yeah. So people were paralyzed and sedated, unnecessarily put on the ventilator, they lost all their rights, they got very sick.

And many died because of it.

And many died because of excessive intubation. So we published papers on this, there were 3 papers, 3 papers, Jackie Stone being one, Sabine Hazen being the other, uh, and there was a third paper. And we've summarized it— Goukliakos is the first author on the summary of the 3 papers regarding what's called permissive hypoxemia. Permissive hypoxemia is let the oxygen saturation go down, provided the work of breathing is acceptable and the mentation is fine. Don't intubate them. So I started to have patients, and this was amazing. I had a doctor in Virginia and her husband who got really sick with COVID They got the McCullough Protocol, and let me tell you, they got everything. They got monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, antibiotics, and the oxygen saturations went down and down and down. And by this time, they knew that the hospital was basically a death sentence. And so, you know what they did? They survived with oxygen saturations in the 60s for a couple weeks. They'd go down really low when they go in the kitchen to get something. I said, listen, how's the work of breathing? They said, well, we're working pretty hard, but you know, they were pretty fit, baseline, you know, you look to me like you're pretty fit. I guarantee you could— your work of breathing would be strong enough where you could manage with COVID you could manage an oxygen saturation clearly in the 80s, 70s, and probably 60s for a prolonged period of time. Yeah, it's called permissive hypoxemia. Do you know, to this day, the medical critical care infectious disease community completely is oblivious to all of this work.

Well, you know, it's so interesting. This is really, really early on. I have a friend of mine who's an acupuncturist, and he told me, he said, you know, this virus is very different from others in that most viruses I see affect the respiratory system. And he told me this is affecting the blood. He said it's causing, in Chinese medicine, they call it blood stasis. He said it's sticking together, it's not moving well. Blood activation, yeah. Yeah, and he said, and this is really what I'm seeing. And so he would have people do things like natokinase. He would have people do things like specific tea more popular in Thailand called galangal. It's like a relative of ginger and turmeric and just doing things to move the blood, break the blood up, move, just, or disperse blood clots and those sort of things. And so, you know, it's interesting how sort of, you know, what you're doing in mainstream medicine and what, you know, these more, you know, natural or even ancient practitioners or the way that they practice sort of, you know, lines up there. But I think that, you know, that's something that, I was, I was so frustrated going through COVID because I was working with people and getting them on specific diet and supplements and seeing good results. I know you were seeing incredible results with all that you've done. I just thought, well, there are literally people dying right now because our government is supposed to be the greatest protector of the people, is keeping this information from them. And it's just, it's sad.

You hit it. I held some calls. And I quickly assumed a leadership role 'cause no one was taking the lead. You know, by March I looked around, I said, surely Harvard's gonna have a protocol or Michigan's gonna have a protocol. And, you know, in 2019, I lectured in two divisions at Harvard. I was an endowed visiting professor. I went to graduate school at University of Michigan. I graduated top of my class at Southwestern in Dallas. I did my residency at the top residency at the time, University of Washington in Seattle. I mean, I was well-trained as any physician that you'll ever talk to. Yeah. And none of these marquee institutions were showing any leadership on this. Yeah. I was contacted by a colleague at Harvard. I just visited him when I lectured there. And he said, "Do you want to be a part of a consortium?" I said, "Well, sure I will. What's it about?" He goes, "It's called Stop COVID." I said, "Terrific. Let's get after it. You guys have all the resources, you got the brainpower. What are we going to do?" We're going to actually observe. So they were going to observe all these outcomes. It was a big database activity, but there were no interventions. They didn't stop COVID. They didn't try a single intervention. So I was holding calls and I talked to some doctors in Southeast Asia. I said, what are you guys doing for COVID? They said, you know, in our area, you know, it's very similar probably to what doctors did for the Spanish flu. We're using forms of poultices, aromatic substances. We're just trying to dilate the airways. We are trying to calm people down and get them through this. And we've noticed, particularly in frail elderly patients, that a panic can set in. And then once they begin to panic, it's all over with. And there's— then there's a vicious cycle. So we're keeping them calm, and we're trying to dilate arterioles, capillaries, and the bronchial airways. And they were using a whole variety of substances. So what I learned through the whole COVID pandemic is there was no specific drug or supplement or treatment that was either necessary nor specific, but it probably took about 4 to 6 things in combination to get through the illness. So nothing was essential. It was so interesting. It was clear though, I was studying who was dying with COVID and, and this characteristic COVID death was someone who was at home, they were told to lock down, they couldn't see their family members, they received zero treatment, zero treatment. They called their doctor, doctor said, "There's no treatment for this." They received zero treatment to the point where they couldn't breathe anymore, they panicked, they called 911. And it's interesting, there's a paper published in JAMA from the paramedics about what did people look like when they called 911? They weren't ready for the mechanical ventilator. In fact, they had adequate blood pressure and heart rate. They were just panicking. Once they came into the hospital, it became a death sentence.

Well, and we even know, I mean, from a mindset standpoint, just even the benefits of taking something for the placebo effect versus thinking, well, there's no option. I wanna tell you, I have a, this is my wife's grandfather. He was diagnosed in Arizona, very healthy. Now, he was like, he was early 80s, golfing every day, seemed very, very healthy. And he went to the doctor, they diagnosed him with COVID and he actually felt fine. And here, here was his reaction. He goes, oh no, oh no. Like, like, he, he actually acted like, believed that he was going to die because of it. And he did. And Lord, yeah, yeah. And this was back in 20 This would have been 2021, early 2021. And I should just share that to say, you know what, um, I think if he would have just gone to a doctor, they said, listen, you're gonna be fine, let's take this one thing, whatever, and, and you're gonna be okay. I think he would have been okay. But there was just such of this massive level of just fear and despair. Offered anything?

No. Okay.

No, they put him on a ventilator, uh, eventually, and that was it.

Oh, well, there you I laid out the prototypic death, and I'm so sorry that happened in your family. I was faced with this with my father. My father had dementia. He was in a nursing home, and he was one of the first to get COVID. It was April of 2020, so we're talking about the Wuhan strain. This is the Wuhan strain. So, "Oh, your dad's got COVID." They moved him to a building, and he was the only one there, so he had lots of— the poor nurses were wearing like hazmat suits at the time. The doctor, in charge of the facility, he just left. He was just AWOL. And they said, Dr. McCullough, what do we do? I said, will you take orders from me? They said, yeah, we will. And this is in my first book, Courage to Face COVID-19. So here's my dad, he's got dementia. He had fallen and had a pelvic fracture. His pelvis was broken in 3 areas. Wow. So he has impaired mechanics. He's flat on his back and he has COVID. So the question on the table is, it's my dad. The government says do nothing. The official government recommendations are don't even try. And my dad's wishes were, I never want to be in the hospital, I never want to die in the hospital, and I'm sure not going on the ventilator. And he had stated that for years. So the question on the table is, do I follow the government and do nothing for my father, of which doctors did nothing for their patients, or do I take action? And so what I did is I told them, I said, open up the windows, let's get some fresh air in there. They go, oh, we never do that, we never do that. I said, open the windows. He's gonna get cold, put a sweater on him. I said, let's begin. Back then we didn't know about the nasal sprays and gargles, and we didn't know about the steroids, it was very early on, but we started hydroxychloroquine. We started antibiotics, azithromycin. He was on some aspirin, which turned out to be beneficial. And very importantly, he had a pelvic fracture. I said, put him on Lovenox. We put him on a blood thinner, injectable blood thinner. We did it for 30 days. And in the middle of it, my dad got so sick. His blood pressure was going down. They measured his serum sodium. Serum sodium should be rock stable at 140 milliequivalents per liter. You're unbelievably thirsty at about 142 or 143. My dad was 151 on sodium. He was so unbelievably hypertonic. I said, "We gotta give him an IV." And the poor nurses tried, they couldn't get an IV. So they actually just put it in the subcutaneous tissue in the abdomen and they dribbled in IV fluid like you would for a little baby. So my dad got the IV fluid and he survived COVID. Now, interestingly, in order to get out of COVID isolation, they said, "Well, he has to test negative." You know, my dad tested intermittently positive 17 times. So I learned with my dad, wait a minute, these PCR tests are positive forever after COVID. And you know, each time he was tested, he counted as a brand new case of COVID So do you know that there was a case count problem? There was no control over duplicates. So the number of cases were grossly exaggerated at any given time because of no control over duplicates. Start your day with Quaker Protein Instant Oatmeal. The instant oatmeal ready to help you tackle whatever your day brings. Like wrangling your toddler into their car seat. That was fun. Coaching your 6th grader's soccer team. Go girls! And carrying all the groceries in one trip. Phew. Try Quaker Protein Instant Oatmeal, granola, and bars. Great taste and a good source of protein. Quaker, bring out the good.

Do you have unexplainable illness, hormone dysfunction, weight loss resistance, brain fog, and you're tired of being dismissed when you know something isn't right? Well, get my at-home testing of targeted biomarkers including hormones, thyroid, and metabolism, plus a full hour with one of my senior health advisors to help you understand your results. The truth is your doctor is probably reading your blood work all wrong. They're missing the cellular issues behind the symptoms. This new testing flips the script. The future of interpreting test results is here. I'm currently offering a simple at-home blood test that actually tests for the right things, and just as importantly, it comes with proper interpretation of your results. If you want to check it out and grab one before they're gone, just go to mybloodwork.com now. I want to transition into something here, and this is people that are still being affected. By COVID. You know, we saw myocarditis, we've seen a lot of— I mean, I, I have seen and worked with so many people with long COVID, you know, just where major, major debilitating fatigue. What are your thoughts on what's causing long COVID, and what are some of the things that you've done to help patients with long COVID?

The Biden administration and HHS spent a billion dollars on this. They had the Long COVID program. $1 billion. That's a massive amount of research on Long COVID. Harvard got grants and all the major institutions got grants. They opened up Long COVID clinics. And you know, not a single discovery, not a single new test, not a single protocol, not a single new drug or therapeutic. Nothing for $1 billion. How could that happen? Because they didn't assess the cause of the problem. Yeah. So the virus is a ball. It has little spines on the surface. The spines are called the spike protein. The cause of Long COVID is the spike protein is retained in the human body. That's the cause of Long COVID. In not a single one of the Biden administration Long COVID programs did they measure the spike protein. Did they measure it in the bloodstream? It can be easily measured by an ELISA test. Nor do they measure antibodies against the spike protein, nor do they assess tissue samples for the spike protein. Yet elsewhere in the world, it became obvious the cause of long COVID is the spike protein, period. Everything else is secondary. Inflammation is secondary. Oxidative stress is secondary. Fatigue is secondary. People hypothesize that there's mitochondrial dysfunction. Well, yeah, it's all secondary. To the spike protein. I mean, this is extraordinary. So a massive blunder was made in institutional medicine.

And what is this spike protein doing in the body? Like, when it's staying in there and not leaving, and why isn't it leaving?

Do we know? Well, influenza has a spike protein on it. It's called hemagglutininase. So influenza's got some spikes on it, hemagglutininase and neuraminase. You get the flu, you clear that stuff out. Yeah. The human enzymes can break down various proteins. So what is the spike protein? It's 1,200 amino acids. It's got about 12 glycosylation side chains. Interestingly and very spooky, the spike protein has 120 amino acid sequence that's identical to a glycoprotein on HIV. Hmm. Identical. Identical. There's multiple papers showing some people who get COVID actually turn HIV positive. It wasn't that common, but that segment of the spike protein must have been exposed to the immune system. Then the Australians broke this open, and they did a randomized trial of a COVID vaccine exposing that part of the spike protein to subjects in Australia. They all turned HIV positive. All of them.

Wow.

All of them.

They didn't have any— I've never even heard that. I mean, I guess this is—

Yes. So you can type it in. Australian vaccine trial turns every subject HIV positive. There it is. So there was something about the spike protein that was very unnatural. Like, why is it identical to a segment of HIV? Then all the information comes out of Wuhan, China. Yeah. And the House subcommittee investigations on this. The spike protein was engineered, engineered. It's not a natural protein, it's engineered. Dr. Ralph Baric at University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, Anthony Fauci, Peter Daszak at the EcoHealth Alliance, Xingling Li in Wuhan, they collaborated and they made an indestructible spike protein.

Now, now, Dr. Fauci, correct me if I'm wrong, in the 1980s, he was very involved with research around HIV.

Yeah, well, he was— listen, he was the director of the National Immunology, Allergy, Infectious Disease Institute. Now, uh, you know, I was practicing at that time. I was a resident and then practicing. I don't think Fauci directed much in terms of the care of HIV. We, you know, we were coming up with our own approaches on how to deal with HIV. But, you know, he was thought to be certainly in a position where he was contributing— the NIH was contributing new knowledge in HIV. But it turns out Fauci was clearly a co-conspirator in the creation of SARS-CoV-2 with this, this man-made spike protein. And in Baric's papers in 2015 in Nature Medicine and 2016 Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, note I'm quoting them precisely, that he declares that they have created a chimeric, that is a man-made mixture of a bat and a human coronavirus, and he called it a SARS-like Wuhan Institute of Virology 1 Co-virus. That's in the title, and it says it's poised for human emergence in the title. And so they created a spike protein that allowed the virus to invade, uh, human, uh, pulmonary epithelial cells. And invade the body, and it cannot be broken down. There are no known enzymes in the human body that break down the spike protein. And, and so the critical discovery was in 2021, Dr. Tanikawa in Japan, where they were working on trying to come up with something that could prevent COVID, and he found that nattokinase, a natural enzyme, dissolves the spike protein in intact cells in cell lysate models.

Wow.

And it doesn't injure cells. It's rapidly taken in cells. Say hallelujah. And then several months after that, another publication of another natural enzyme, bromelain, or a family of enzymes derived from pineapple, also dissolves the spike protein, but at different cleavage sites. The spike protein had to be the treatment target for long COVID and vaccine injury syndromes. Yeah. McCullough protocol, base spike detoxification, met that need. It's the only protocol. Everybody else came up and said, well, treat inflammation. No, you'll never get rid of the spike protein that way. Oh, give low-dose naltrexone, they'll feel better. No, you're not getting rid of the spike protein. Well, give them nicotine, it can kind of block the spike protein nicotinic receptor. Fine, but you're still not getting rid of the spike protein. So what we did is— and this is very important— we use the word base. That it's the base to get rid of the spike protein, and then you add other things on top. So sure, do I use nicotine for small fiber neuropathy?

Like, what are your top 5? If you're like, okay, there are 5 things, and maybe this is all— and I know you've created products and ingredients together, but what do you think are the 5 in ranking order most impactful things people can take for long COVID?

Well, for sure. So yeah, I'm one of the founding members and the chief scientific officer of the Wellness Company. The Wellness Company has the lead product, which is called the Ultimate Spike Detox, and it's very well named. And it's the combination of nattokinase in high doses, bromelain, and curcumin. And the nattokinase and bromelain in preclinical studies, and now it's our clinical observation, people are getting better and we're seeing every measure of spike protein go down clinically. Those are, are absolutely critical. Now, curcumin's interesting. It doesn't get rid of the spike protein, but that's even gone to human randomized trials. It blocks inflammation from the spike protein almost directly. So nanokinase, bromelain, curcumin. And then there's many ingredients in the Ultimate Spike Detox. Black sativa, a variety of other kind of botanical extracts, there's about 4 of them. And then there's some necessary things for absorption. Curcumin needs piperine or black pepper acid for absorption. Selenium at a low dose works and helps absorption. So Ultimate Spite Detox, kind of for sure needed. You can look at it, buy the separate ingredients, and buy, you know, you could buy 6 different bottles and accomplish the same thing, but it's just needed. And it was copyrighted in my name, but not patented intentionally because too many people need it. And so if you go on Amazon right now, you type in Spike Detox, you'll see my concept everywhere, everywhere, all over. So that's absolutely needed. So beyond the Ultimate Spike Detox, what's the next most important drug? And I would say, because this is a very serious outcome that happens particularly in the vaccine injured, and that's cardiac arrest, what's needed is a drug that's mandatory in the guidelines for heart inflammation and inflammation around the heart, and that's colchicine. Mandatory. It's not optional. So every person who's had any type of chest symptoms at all in long COVID or in vaccine injury has to be on colchicine. Mandatory. And so this is— this is in the guidelines, in European guidelines, since 2016. I can't tell you how many patients with long COVID and vaccine injury the doctors have never prescribed colchicine.

Well, and how does this relate to myocarditis? Because one of the things I know is mortality rates from acute myocarditis and heart failure were declining. And then we saw this increase on this, you know, we have a graphic here we're going to show here as well. Good observation. It's really, you know, just right.

Well, there's, there's, is, is there's a somewhat of a false narrative out there where the American College of Cardiology has said, wait a minute, there's a lot more myocarditis from the infection than there is from the vaccine. It's like, well, how do they determine that? Well, I can tell you, on people who die with COVID-19, no vaccine, the virus is not found in the human heart. It's not found in the heart. What was going on is when people are hospitalized with COVID a whole bunch of blood tests are done, and one of them is called troponin. And the troponin, which is elevated in about a third of sick people in the hospital anyway, no matter what form of pneumonia, that was triggering the ICD codes. And when they do a big data pull, say, well, they must have myocarditis. So that whole literature was a false literature. They said, oh, they have myocarditis due to the virus. There wasn't a single adjudicated case, not a single MRI-confirmed case of myocarditis with the virus alone. And so what was happening in 2020, we were so scared, all the universities had big myocarditis screening programs, 'cause we know myocarditis, if it happens, if athletes go on the field, the surge of adrenaline can trigger cardiac arrest. So the Big Ten— and I went to a Big Ten school at Michigan— they had a huge screening program. They screened thousands and thousands of athletes who got COVID. And in 2020, about 20% of athletes got COVID, and they looked for myocarditis in thousands of that. They got MRIs, EKGs, echos, troponins. They came up with, they believe, 36 possible cases, none of them confirmed, no hospitalizations, no deaths, none. And that paper was published by Daniels and colleagues in JAMA. So after 2020, all the colleges and athletic programs dropped all the concern regarding myocarditis due to the infection, if this tells you anything, okay. Then we bring in the vaccines. And there was a slide that was an internal meeting at the NIH, CDC, and FDA, in October of 2020, before the vaccines are released. It says anticipated side effects: myocarditis. Anticipated. They knew what was going to happen because the messenger RNA targets the heart.

So what— one of my questions for you is, in looking at all this data, working with all these patients, is there a difference when you're talking about mRNA? And then I also want to hear about spike protein. In relation to this. Is there a difference between getting the COVID vaccine and being exposed that way versus getting it naturally?

Yes, in two ways. With the infection, Bruce Patterson, who formed a company around this, InCellDx, has clearly demonstrated with the infection, just the tip of the spike protein gets in the body. It's called the S1 segment. And the body actually takes it inside cells. There's very little free-floating S1 segment, but it's everywhere with the infection. Deeper infections, serious hospitalized infections, untreated patients, more S1 segment. As an indirect proxy of the spike protein exposure, we measure antibodies against the spike protein. It's very important. There's a paper, Barham and colleagues, who studied this. Those who just had the infection, no vaccine, and they have some symptoms, the average antibody titer in what's called binding units per mL of an infection, no vaccine, that number's round about 2,000. Okay, every study under the sun shows if you're under 1,000 on the spike antibody levels, great prognosis, probably prior spike exposure, you're perfectly fine. Normal is less than 0.8, and in my practice, I've tested thousands of patients, I have maybe 3 people less than 0.8, that have not been touched by either the virus or vaccine. The average person who takes the vaccine on that same test, 11,000. So, and then there's a paper by Brogna and colleagues that actually did look for spike protein in the blood using mass spec and found in Pfizer and Moderna, there is full-length spike protein, the S1 and the S2 segment, and it trimerizes in threes. It's essentially indestructible. Pfizer and Moderna inserted two proline insertions to keep the spike protein open and indestructible. And, and they replaced in the messenger RNA, they replaced every natural uracil. Messenger RNA should be broken down in a matter of minutes or hours. They replaced every uracil with a synthetic nucleoside analog called pseudouridine. The Nobel Prize was won by Karikó and Weissman. For the discovery of pseudouridination. They made Pfizer and Moderna messenger RNA itself, itself indestructible, and it's producing a spike protein that if we do nothing about this stays in the body conceivably forever.

Wow. I had an uncle who, um, we encouraged not to do this, but he did. He was working at the University of Maryland and ended up getting the booster, the second one, and then 3 weeks later was running a track. He was 60 years old, very fit, right? Very fit. And, um, and had a, had a major cardiac event. Yeah. And, um, and it was 3 weeks later. I mean, it was, you know, in, in, in, in— it's, it's so hard because there are, you know, we see this in, in medicine today, whether it be everything from autism to long COVID to a number of things, of, of the science saying, well, we don't know, there's no cause, we don't want— almost, but almost like we don't want we don't want to look in the first place. And then you have all of these people that have experienced things with their family members coming forward saying, listen, something's— we're not right here, something's wrong. We saw this sort of correlation. For, for, for you, what do you think the right path is medically when you have a large group of people saying, I think there's an issue here? Um, and what has been your experience? But I almost don't know what I'm— I kind of know what I'm asking, but my point is I'd love to get your thoughts on that, because I think that mainstream medicine so often today just turns a blind eye, completely looks away from what people are saying and experiencing.

We have to talk about things. What happened during COVID is we were banned from meetings. All the medical meetings stopped. I was at a major university medical center that we got a memo saying, listen, you can't have more than 10 people in a room. We stopped having grand rounds. I mean, I haven't seen— since the onset of COVID I haven't seen some of my colleagues since that time. It's 5 years later. We don't talk anymore. We have to talk through this. And what we've seen, what you're talking about, is called gaslighting. Gaslighting. That is, people say, listen, I took the shots, I developed a blood clot. It's just, you know, I was fine before this. And the doctors will say, We don't know what caused that, but it's not the vaccine. Right. Wait a minute, if you don't know what causes it, how do you know it's not the vaccine? So the worst vignette that I'm aware of is my co-author of my book, my two books, John Leake, is in Dallas. He's considered the world's greatest historian, and he had a girlfriend years ago, and she lived on the Channel Islands of the UK. So she takes these shots and then she notices redness in her arm and her lymph nodes start to swell and they get more swollen and more swollen. It's clearly an acute kind of lymphoblastic effect or lymphoproliferative effect of the vaccine is growing. And she goes, I'm really getting scared. So they airlifted her from the Channel Islands into London and she's at one of the major hospitals and she's seen all these doctors and they're taking biopsies and they're coming in and making proclamations I said, listen, we've never seen this before. It's never happened before in our experience, but we know one thing. It's not due to the vaccine. She goes, I just took it. I was fine before this. But the doctors are convinced it's not the vaccine. This thing continues to grow. It crushes her carotid artery. She has a stroke and now she's permanently disabled.

Oh, wow.

No. So, so This is the problem when it comes to vaccines. My second book is called Vaccines: Mythology, Ideology, and Reality. Vaccines throughout 3 centuries have essentially become a religion in medicine.

And this is like what we were talking about earlier. You had this whole thing with, you know, where cocaine's okay, tobacco's okay. What about that?

Well, how can this be? Well, in our book, we outline this 300-year history of For infectious diseases, it had to do with the fact that there was tremendous fear of infectious diseases, and boy, did we see that with COVID Did you see people living in bubbles and wearing masks? The fear, the human fear of infectious diseases as an archetypal fear, I don't think any of us estimated it to be what it is, right? So there's this archetypal fear of infectious diseases. Bold claims made by vaccine developers, "Oh, just take a shot and you're safe and you'll get your freedoms back," and what have you. And so lots of bold unsupported claims, tremendous money and power. Every time it went back to smallpox, all the way through, you know, the campaigns for polio and measles and etc. This has been going on a long time. It's essentially a religion. It's a religion. And believe it or not, it's such a strong religion that if anybody questions a vaccine or shows any hesitancy to get one, they're considered to have a mental disease called vaccine hesitancy. And in the peer-reviewed literature, there's 20 different psychometric instruments to assess vaccine hesitancy. Like, you've got a mental problem, you're not accepting a vaccine. Wow. So in our CDC— by the way, the, the, um, the World Health Organization says one of the single greatest threats to public health is vaccine hesitancy. That's how important they think it is. So I was asked to lecture at Chautauqua, which is one of the most prized lecturing venues that any public figure could have. I mean, the Kennedys and the Roosevelts and so many people have lectured at Chautauqua. It's the heart of American liberalism. In fact, you may recall Salman Rushdie was stabbed on stage at Chautauqua. Oh, wow. It's in Western New York a few years ago. So I was asked to lecture at Chautauqua. I thought about this. I said, boy, I'm going to really lower the boom on these vaccines. You know, I'm going to present the data as they exist. But I said, I have to do it in some context of understanding of how could the medical community be completely wrong on an issue, participate in something harmful themselves, and how could this go on to their patients and the public? Are there any examples? So the first example I gave was, was called the first great cocaine epidemic. From 1860 to about 1920, virtually every drug company made their first products were cocaine products. Merck and Warner-Lambert and Pfizer and all of them, they were derivatives of cocaine that, uh, It was in every elixir. Halsted, the father of modern surgery at Johns Hopkins, became a brutal cocaine addict. Sigmund Freud was a cocaine addict. Doctors were self-experimenting. They were publishing on the wonders of cocaine in the journals. It was in Coca-Cola. It was in Chianti wine. It was sold in drugstores all over. The entire country got hooked on cocaine, and the lead addicts were doctors and nurses. They're the lead addicts. It was so bad that Woodrow Wilson, 1913, said, listen, I'm taking cocaine away. We're taking— Coca-Cola voluntarily pulled it out. Pembroke Wines took it out of county wines. The doctors would not give this up. It was horrible. And I looked in JAMA, the lead medical journal at the time, with hundreds and hundreds of manuscripts on the benefits of cocaine. There was one paper of concern. One. One.

Wow.

It was an Irish doctor. Okay. Finally, there was the Dangerous Narcotics Act and others. The law had to take it away from the doctors. The doctors could not police themselves. And the nurses too. We say doctors and nurses, they're all together. First example, they caused great harm. They caused addiction. Undoubtedly, they caused death to themselves. Their patients and the public at large. The medical community did this for 60 years. Next segment of time, what I called in my lecture, smoke fest. Smoke fest. You get to about 1920, virtually every doctor, nurse, and anybody with any money in this country smoked.

I remember my grandmother and her sharing with me this. Her doctor prescribed, recommended she smoke for weight loss. Yeah.

So this was, yeah, R.J.R. Reynolds. Philip Morris, an American tobacco company, they all had physician marketing campaigns. Doctors' offices were outfitted with cigarettes. They handed out cigarettes to their patients. The doctors proclaimed they were safe, that they had calming effects, that this brand had less throat irritation than that brand. And this went on and on and on and on. 1949, Sir Austin Bradford Hill, an epidemiologist in England, and Richard Doll start making their observations. They do a cross-sectional study. They go, listen, I think smoking is causing lung cancer. They present their data to the Medical Research Council. No, no, smoking could not be related to lung cancer. The black smoke going into the lungs couldn't be related to the blackened tumors coming out of the lungs. No. No, do more research. So they do the British Physicians Smoking Study. They do another 3 years. Convincingly, the conclusions of that study, by the way, is at least half of the deaths were smoking-related among physicians. They present the data. No, it can't be the case. Austin Bradford Hill gets tuberculosis. He kind of fades away, he gets sick. But Dahl persists. He is smeared. He's discredited. He's debunked. The tobacco companies go after him. No, he's not a credible doctor anymore, what have you. Okay, the United States, it keeps rolling. No, there's no concerns. None of the presidents, none of the Surgeon General, the NIH shows no concern over this. 1964, Luther Terry, Surgeon General, produces the Surgeon General Report on smoking. Smoking causes lung cancer and all kinds of harms. He calls all the chiefs of medicine to Washington, said, listen, I've got a report The doctors are all smoking. They show up, all the guys from Harvard, what have you. He's like, "I got bad news for you. Smoking is harmful." They reject it. They reject the Surgeon General's report. It's not until 1978 before the American Medical Association comes out with their first pamphlet, "The Harms of Smoking." Not till the 1990s do we have the tobacco settlement. So now we've got a 60-year episode, period of time Cocaine, clearly bad. The doctors were on the wrong side of history. They don't say they're sorry. And there's never any historical reconciliation. The same thing with smoking. The doctors never go back and say they're sorry, or there's never papers written about how we were wrong on smoking. Now enter vaccines. The vaccines have amplified, amplified, amplified over 3 centuries. We get to 1986. And we have the Vaccine Injury Compensation Act. There's so many kids with problems after the diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis vaccines and measles and mumps and rubella vaccines. The parents are up in arms. The vaccine companies basically go to the Reagan administration and HHS and say, listen, if we don't get some liability protection, we're not going to produce our products. And so HHS writes— Congress writes the Vaccine Injury Compensation Act and said, listen, The vaccine companies cannot be sued directly.

Wow.

We will have our own injury compensation program for those harmed by the vaccine. And in the 1986 legislation, it says vaccines have unavoidable harms. It says unavoidable harms. If we mass vaccinate the country, some people are going to be harmed. And what this is about is a religion. The religion— and we outline this in our book, which is a New York Times bestseller— the religion goes like this: humans are susceptible to infectious diseases inherently, inherently. But through the brilliance of science and vaccinology, through the brilliance of mankind, man can improve upon God's creation.

Yeah.

Man outdoes God with vaccines, but the vaccines aren't perfect. So for them to work, for this really to work, everyone must take them, everyone without exception. And if some people are injured or disabled or even die due to the vaccine effort, they should accept it for the greater good of humanity. That's vaccine ideology. Yeah, it's in the minds of people. So you talk to people about vaccines and say, listen, I'm concerned about large numbers of people dying with the COVID-19 vaccines. Well, they'll say, listen, a lot more died with COVID Oh, we can trade lives. So someone dying with COVID is kind of the same as someone dying with the vaccine. Wait a minute, someone who gets COVID is deep into COVID with a lot of variables. You pointed out comorbidities and other things. Someone who takes a COVID vaccine is perfectly healthy.

Yeah, that's right.

No one should take a shot. No one who's perfectly healthy should take a preventive shot and lose their life.

Yeah.

In your world, no one should take a preventive supplement and lose their life. Right. Should, should that be accepted? Should that be okay? No. And so So this is basically amplified now to such a crucible. We're at the same point as with cocaine and smoking. We're at a crucible now where Rasmussen, which does valid population-based surveys, has done several surveys, one indicating 56% of Americans believe the COVID-19 vaccines have are responsible for large losses of life. Wow. 56%. And then they've just done one among those who took the vaccine. And of those who took the COVID-19 vaccine, 10% said, I have a serious medical problem due to this vaccine. That's what the public believes.

I mean, that's incredibly high. Incredibly.

Oh yeah.

I mean, wow.

I can tell you a side effect that was 1% would be high. Can you imagine 10%? And so the medical literature has 4,000 peer-reviewed papers. I've published a lot of those.

I mean, the number of people with long COVID alone is just, you know, is just crazy.

It was bad enough as it was in 2020. It clearly wasn't due to the vaccine. Those cases are kind of over, right?

Right.

Yeah. Now we've got this blend. And in some countries, 95% of people took the shots. In Australia, for instance, virtually everyone took the shots. Then they got COVID. So they have a baseline spike protein load in the body, then they get the infection. So it obviously must be a blend of the infection and the vaccine, because they both load the body with spike protein. So an important paper from Drexler and colleagues, published from Germany, 42,000 Germans, they concluded 70% of all long COVID is really due to the vaccine. So it's a vaccine injury syndrome. It's a— and so in our papers, we call it a post-acute sequelae. Whether you have the infection or the vaccine. But people are walking around with the spike protein, and if they don't undergo some form of spike detoxification— the lead is nattokinase and bromelain— they literally don't get rid of it.

Are you interested in functional nutrition tips to burn fat, reduce inflammation, improve your brain and energy levels, and heal naturally? Then I want to encourage you to listen to my friend Dr. Dave Jocker's podcast, The Functional Nutrition Podcast. This podcast is designed to help you with easy actionable steps to improve your nutrition and lifestyle, understand your lab work, and address the root cause factors that may be driving up inflammation in your body. Now, I've been friends with Dr. David Jockers for 20 years, and he's truly a world expert in functional nutrition, cellular healing, and so much more. If you want to learn the best nutrition and natural healing tips, tune in to the Dr. Jockers Functional Nutrition Podcast on Apple iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever you can listen to podcasts worldwide.

So you may ask the question, what else helps the body get rid of spike protein? Yeah. And importantly, what helps the body get rid of messenger RNA if it's indestructible? In my view, there's two non-medicinal, non-supplement things that do work. One is sweating, very important. Hannah and colleagues demonstrated messenger RNA is in breast milk. She did two studies on this. This is horrible. You know, women who took the vaccine are breastfeeding their babies, and the messenger RNA is coming right out of the milk into the baby. But this is an important lead. Breast milk is modified sweat. So this— the messenger RNA must come out in sweat. It must. So sweating, very important. In my clinical experience, I have patients— listen, I said, go sweat, go work out and sweat. Go into saunas and sweat like a pig. And I think that's the reason why after the initial wave of sudden deaths in the athletes, which occurred, if you don't, if you saw these reels in Europe of the athletes going down with cardiac arrest on the field, that's over with now. But there was a paper published by Pauli Cretas and myself clearly showing that was a vaccine effect. After that, the athletes seemed to be fine. There was only one NFL player that went down and that was Damar Hamlin. And Tucker Carlson had me on and I said, listen, I need to know if he took the vaccine. Myself and another cardiologist, Dr. Gookin, we wrote the Buffalo Bills doctors and we said, listen, you know, we looked at this, it's a vaccine cardiac arrest. It's not because he tackled somebody hard. Yeah, uh, get him on, uh, McCullough protocol, Spike Detox, and colchicine, and he probably doesn't need an ICD if his ventricle's okay. And that's been my experience now. So people don't need defibrillators. Now, another vaccine cardiac arrest was Uwe Choo-Choo, a player for at USC. They had two vaccine cardiac arrests. They had Bronnie James and this guy. He got an ICD, which I think was unnecessary. And then the clincher was Pilot Snow. I don't know if you heard the story of Pilot Snow, but he landed an American Airlines flight about 6 weeks after he took a COVID vaccine. People get off the plane, he has a cardiac arrest in the jetway. And there's a story called the Miracle of Pilot Snow, which is really a miracle that the poor stewardesses scrambling, and he's, he's out. He— I talked to Snow. He said, I was out. He goes, I literally was saying goodbye to people, and I was— that's it. It was lights out. The miracle, Pilot Snow, is one of the, um, stewardesses called 911, and there's paramedic units, two of them circulating at DFW. The miracle was the unit happened to be at the gate next door helping some lady with them. So they ran over, and even being that close, it still took 6 defibrillations to get Snow back. But they got him back. He's neurologically fine. He was in a Dallas hospital. He pulls up his hospital gown where they fried him with the defibrillator pads, and he does a video. He goes, "This is what the vaccine did to me." I mean, he came out hard. And he got a defibrillator, and I had a chance to meet him and examine him, and I asked him an important question. He'd been on McCullough protocol detoxification and Colchicine, and I asked him, I said, "Has your defibrillator gone off?" He goes, "No." And so typically when you have a cardiac arrest from a myocardial infarction or cardiomyopathy, the chances of the defibrillator going off within a few years can be as high as 50% or 25%, but there hasn't been any repeat arrests. All these cardiac arrests that were saved, they haven't had a repeat arrest. So I think actually, this wave, people aren't taking the shots anymore. So I think the wave of the cardiac arrests is now essentially over. And we're concerned about a problem called subclinical myocarditis. That is, they weren't acutely sick to begin with. They didn't have an immediate cardiac arrest, and now the spike protein is just built up in them. And so occasionally we'll see cardiac arrests. I think the athletes have fared okay because of sweating and getting it out. And the other thing, by the way, is universal. Every study done on this is universally positive. And that's hyperbaric oxygen. And it may be going in a hyperbaric chamber, getting 100% oxygen at higher pressures. It may actually denature the spike protein and enable it to be cleared from the body.

Well, well, that's amazing. I'm a huge fan of, uh, of hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I had a spinal infection, ended up getting in one almost every day for 3 months in a hard chamber, and, um, was incredible.

How'd you get it? Spinal tap, or—

no, I actually, I actually got it from a, uh, stem cell injection in my disc. Oh, you got infected? Yeah, it was like a one in— I looked this up online, you know, one in like half a million chance. I mean, it was incredibly rare, but, uh, yeah. But, um, I, I read several studies on discitis, on osteomyelitis, and hyperbaric oxygen therapy, and it was, from what I just found, by far the most effective thing.

I'm not an expert on hyperbaric. Now I refer to Al Johnson in Dallas, who is an expert, and he's— has one— runs a wonderful center Very positive data on hyperbaric on wound healing. So it's, it's indicated for diabetic foot ulcers, what have you. Neurocognitive. So he sees patients who— all the athletes have had concussions.

Yeah.

And examines them before and after. Long COVID and vaccine injury, universally positive. I mean, this is very exciting. The reason why I'm excited about it is because we're trying the best we can with oral supplements, and with prescription drugs. Yeah, but we can only go so far. But let me round up the conversation. Besides McCullough Protocol-based spike protein detoxification, for any cardiac or chest symptoms, colchicine mandatory for a year. If there are any craniofacial syndromes, headaches, loss of taste and smell or hearing, skin rashes, persistent pulmonary findings, I am suspicious of what's called a SARS-CoV-2 reservoir. That is, the virus is still alive in the body, replicating. Several studies have shown this in those circumstances. Their patients, in my view, need prolonged ivermectin. They go on full dose ivermectin for 90 days. Patients with small fiber neuropathy, brain fog, a better term is loss of mental clarity. One study from Switzerland and a lot of clinical experience suggests nicotine. Giving a nicotine patch, 7 milligrams, not full dose 21, but 7, you know, do it for about 90 days, has a role. Patients who are ANA positive, arthritis symptoms, signs of autoimmunity, hydroxychloroquine. Those are the go-to drugs. People have tried plasma exchange, IVIG, stem cells, low-dose naltrexone. I've tried them all too. I don't think they work. Yeah, yeah. Boy, complications. I've had patients go for stem cells, get a blood clot right in the same arm as the stem cell.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense doing stem cell for that. I mean, you know, I think, you know, based on— obviously there's a level of personalization. I think one of the things that happens often in both natural medicine and mainstream medicine is there's so much of a cookie cutter approach. People like, everybody be able to get on keto or carnivore, everybody should be vegan, everybody should take metformin, everybody should take a statin drug, versus there needs to be a level of personalization, uh, for everybody.

Can we talk about just a few things on diet. I know you're—

I'd love to—

a greater diet expert than I am, but for long COVID and vaccine injury syndromes, these are my observations. Yeah, I tell— this is why I tell patients, no alcohol. Yep, none. Yeah, alcohol and spike protein don't go together. The spike protein is in the human heart. It causes heart failure. It causes cardiac arrest. Alcohol is a cardiac toxin to the heart muscle. Yeah, it's got to go. I totally agree. I tell people no alcohol, none, zero, and the heart's not going to get better. This doesn't end. It was better. The second thing for both acute COVID and long COVID, in my first book, I credit, I credit Yvette Lozano in Dallas, was one of the first to study this, and lots of publications on this. We don't want to feed the spike protein-related inflammation, whether it's SARS-CoV-2 or just the vaccine, with sugar and starch. Yeah, it's just— I said, I tell people the worst thing to do is eat a Cinnabon or to eat a donut, what have you. You don't— you know, a diet like this is going to worsen the long COVID syndrome. Yvette was— it was literally, you know, there was such a tight relationship between fasting glucose and hemoglobin A1c and outcomes in these pandemic syndromes that we're really tight on. I tell people, I say, listen, your bread-eating days are done. And we've got to really stay away from those. Now, and people say, well, should I go all the way to a ketogenic diet? Now, in my practice, I do have one patient with a cardiac arrest on a ketogenic diet in the setting of—

Yeah, there are certain cases.

It's just, mm. So this is my brief dietary advice in the pandemic and in general, thinking that for diet, we have many, many goals for diet. So coming out of the pandemic, everything's amplified, but even before, you and I are going to pass away at some point in time. Your chances and my chances in general of dying of heart disease is about a 40% fraction. Cancer is about a 40% fraction, and death from other causes is in our 20% fraction. So if you're going to orient diet, you'd want to handle everything. So you want the diet to be kind of, you know, cardiac preventive, but also cancer preventive. And you clearly don't want to contribute to diabetes and sleep apnea. You want to be nice and thin and handsome as you are the rest of your life, and what have you. So you want to accomplish a ton of goals with diet. So you want it to be anti-inflammatory and you want it to be anti-allergic and you want it to do all those things. So considering the full breadth of what you're trying to occur in diet, and that diet is both healthy choices, which I think is a reasonable fraction of what we're doing, and portion control, both.

Yeah, yeah, both.

Yeah. So healthy choices, portion control. And then for people trying to maintain weight or lose weight, you have diet, which I think is about 80% of the weight equation, and then you have exercise.

Yeah.

Which is about 20% of the weight equation. So you have that to consider. Having thought about all this, with tight portion control and allowing hunger, I think it's very important for people to all reconnect with their hunger. Yeah. I have obese patients who have told me, I said, when's the last time you were hungry? Oh, probably years ago. They're never hungry. Yeah. Like right now, I haven't had anything today because I was hustling here to see you in Nashville.

Yeah.

I'm hungry. That's a natural sensation. Yeah. So we should allow hunger, uh, and with good portion control. But the healthy choices, I would say, this is what the human body needs in my view. They need high-quality sources of protein.

Yeah.

In this order: fish, beans, nuts, fish, beans, nuts, egg whites, nonfat dairy, occasional chicken and beef. I personally have pork out of the equation.

Yeah, I, I, I don't recommend pork at all.

Uh, the, the genetic vaccines have been used since 2017.

Yeah.

Okay. So it's a pyramid. Fish, beans, nuts, egg whites, nonfat dairy, and, uh, occasional chicken, beef, occasional. And then fresh fruits and vegetables unlimited in my view. So that means there's 3 things to get rid of in the diet. The 3 S's. Sugars, shh. Starches, that means nothing made out of flour, no rice, no potatoes. You don't need them. Everybody wants to negotiate starch. Everybody does. Yeah. Say, "Doctor, can I have this? Can I at least have—" Starch, by the way, is 60% of calories in the American diet. So if you get rid of starch, immediately there's weight loss. Every single person I— whoever's been super buff, I said, "Boy, those are— you got some great abs there. Do you eat lots of donuts?" Never. Yeah, never. Okay, and then the last S is saturated fat. Now here's the rub with the keto carnivores. They said, I gotta eat a lot of saturated fat. I said, you know, you know, I just don't see it.

You know what's interesting? So there's a debate, there's debate within the, um, mainstream nutrition community, more of the, uh, alternative nutrition community. And, and I, I'll share this from a more of a Chinese medicine this in perspective. Generally, again, I am a big proponent of a personalized diet. I think a lot of your rules are pretty darn close to what I'd recommend. Yeah, a lot of fiber, a good amount of protein, a lot of healthy fatty acids from olive oil and wild-caught salmon and walnuts. And I mean, that's a— for sure, that's a pretty great diet there. And, and I do think that some people who, you know, genetically have a much lower risk of a heart issue they may tolerate butter, they may tolerate some tallow, the, the, the, the, the saturated fats more than others. But I do think generally speaking that I've seen enough evidence statistically of even when you're comparing seed oils to certain types of saturated fat that some of, and by the way, the seed oils, people are using that term just a bad term, hardly bad term because it's like, are you talking about cold pressed flax oil? Are you talking about highly processed trans fats? Yeah.

Yeah. A very, very different polyunsaturated, uh, palm kernel oil.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you know what I think are the healthiest fats are fruit oils, which is going to be olives or fruits. Okay, good. Um, you've got avocado, that's technically a fruit. Yeah. And now, now this one's debatable, and I do think it's a little bit of a different type of a saturated fat when you look at the mechanism of digestion, and it's coconut oil because it's predominantly medium-chain fatty acids, and it's very different than—

but listen, you don't drink, you don't drink this stuff. I, I think this whole idea, I think this is a giant distraction on the oils. You don't drink them, okay?

Well, so I mean, yeah, in general, that is very calorie dense.

Yeah, I know, to your point, but you don't take huge quantities of them. But what I tell people is that, listen, this idea of saturated fat— and I use, I use this example— what do I do? What do I do? I try to keep my saturated fat less than 10 grams a day. Less than 10 grams a day, okay? Now, if I had a Whataburger and fries, in Texas we got Whataburger, that's 60 grams of saturated fat. 60. Yeah. 60. If I went and had Cheesecake Factory cheesecake, which is a quarter of the cheesecake, that can be 100 grams of saturated fat. Now listen, if I had corn on the cob, do I put some butter on it? Sure, I don't sweat it. Sure. If I'm going on my wife's anniversary and we go to a steakhouse and we have steak, 6-ounce steak, I don't sweat that. But I'm not gonna eat steak morning, noon, and night and eat sticks of butter and try to throw myself in ketosis and get all sweaty and nervous and all of this. I don't think that's healthy, I guess, yeah. And what have you. But yet, I've had on my show, I bring on vegans and all these others and I bring on keto carnivores. And the keto carnivores are interesting. They just, before you know it, they go, "You're wrong, you're wrong. Ancel Keys was wrong." And no, cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease. They just start going nuts. And I said, listen, you know, we've got a body of literature right now. It's running about, and I think one of the most even-keeled people out there is Joel Kahn, who's one of my mentors in cardiology. It's running about 98 to 2 on vegan-based versus keto carnivore.

For heart disease. And that's one thing I do want to point out, mortality is going to be a little different, but it still is going to skew the way you're talking.

Yeah, cancer prevention is also running on that, that vegan approach, because all your cruciferous vegetables, anti-cancer. All your medicinal stuff, anti-cancer. Heavy meats, pro-colon cancer, for instance. So on cancer, it's running Now, the keto carnivore is particularly interesting because when I ask keto carnivores on this, I said, "What do you think the real benefit of doing this?" Most of them struggle with their weight and they're getting wonderful control over their weight, which they never had before. Yeah. Okay. Most of them struggle with their food urges and the discipline of not eating, and it helps them there greatly. But what they tell me, every single one has told me, the benefits of keto carnivore improved mental clarity. Sure. Having the brain use these ketones. Yeah. Somehow this mental clarity comes up over and over again. And there are miraculous anecdotes. So I've had on my show Dr. Bosworth, Annette Bosworth. She has an anecdote of her mother essentially resolving a deep cancer syndrome. And she's legit. I was recently at an event and this woman who's quite an expert I had her on my show later on and she publishes a whole book on this, present a case where a child had profound schizophrenia, became on the street person, is just mentally just lost, completely have a deep psychiatric syndrome resolve on a ketogenic diet. So what I've said is that, listen, this needs to be explored not as a general diet for the whole country, but boy, for these specific applications, terrific. Sure. And I'm okay with keto carnivore, you know, just have some fruit. And one time I mentioned, they go, "Fruit, if you eat an apple, you're gonna throw me outta ketosis." And I said, "Listen, I've been a doctor for, gosh, going on 40 years. I've never seen somebody come in my office with serious disease because they ate an apple." That's right. I've never seen it. That's right. I didn't have a doctor come in and say, Doctor, I became 300 pounds 'cause I ate too many Granny Smith apples. Or, Doctor, my heart got blocked up 'cause I ate too many apples. It doesn't happen. With things that are healthy for you, you tend not to overeat them. You use the example of salmon. I'll eat a piece of salmon. I won't go back and have 3 more. But let me tell you, if you put a brownie in front of me, I'll go have 3 more. So we always overeat the unhealthy things. If I eat an apple, I'm not gonna go eat 3 more.

I'm done. Organic lean meat, fruits and vegetables, fruits and vegetables, fruits and vegetables. You and I agree. Solves all problems. We're there. Yeah, yeah, we're there.

But in the setting of COVID in the pandemic though, a healthy diet is very important. It's part of detoxification. Yeah, it's part of recovery. We do believe supplements play a role— nattokinase, bromelain, curcumin, There may be some others, by the way. N-acetylcysteine may play a role. Sure, yeah. Sereptase, lumbrokinase may play a role. We don't know. We have one paper on sereptase. You know, there's some other general, you mentioned them, it's interesting. Both long COVID and the vaccine, I believe, are immunosuppressive states. That the data suggests we're more likely to get common colds. We're more likely to get shingles, varicella zoster. We're more likely to get Ramsey-Hunt. That's what, Justin Bieber has. We're more likely to, we're more susceptible now. We've been immunosuppressed. Maybe it's this segment in the spike protein, this glycoprotein analogous to HIV, but there's an opportunity for immune boosters and I've personally subscribed to this. I used to not take any of this, but let me tell you, I think vitamin C plays a role. Probably low-dose zinc plays a role. Not too much, we don't disrupt copper metabolism, but it plays a role. Vitamin D for sure. Yeah, vitamin D. Yeah, quercetin, I think for sure. I would say echinacea, elderberry, oregano. So look for products that contain multiple of these immune boosters. And then very importantly now, what I'm doing, which I was not doing 5 years ago, I'm doing a twice daily nasal spray and gargle. Wow. For sure. Yeah, listen, I just came on a plane, there's 300 people Don't you think somebody had a virus on the plane? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna do a couple squirts of a nasal spray, sniff it back, blow it out. Remember, when a virus settles in your nose, it's there for 5 to 7 days. It needs a nice, stable, dry nose. You never know it's there. It's replicating, replicating. It's attaching to the hair cells, replicating, replicating, replicating. The lymphatics drain back to the throat. Your first sign the virus has been here for a week, is a sore throat. Wow. By the time you have a sore throat, it's been there for a week. You had a week to knock this out. Yeah, yeah. And so a very large study was published in Lancet. It's called the Immune Defense Study. It's a very important study, 15,000 participants showing on-demand nasal spray, just doing it when you think you get a sore throat, suppose, that had about a 25% preventive effect. Not bad. Yeah, just do it daily. Don't wait until you have the symptoms. Now we get to 70, maybe even 100% effect. And that's what I'm advising in my practice. I have all my patients doing it. I said, don't worry too much about what you're choosing. Now, Wellness Company, we have, we have a product called Immune Defense, which is xylitol, erythritol, a whole bunch of other things combined. CoFixRx has xylitol, Povidone iodine, vitamin D, you know, some have Cardogenin, some have other grapefruit seed extract in it. Fine. Even just salt water, yeah, has an effect. And in babies, there's been a study, believe it or not, in babies, just did some dilute baby shampoo. Even if you took a little bulb syringe, you squirt it up in a baby, you literally can have an impact there. But you cannot let the virus set up shop for a week. So what's going on in there? The virus at a low viral load, it's not doing anything. If you knock it down enough, you give enough time for your mucosal immune system to neutralize it, and you know, you never get, you never get the infection. Yeah, because yeah, we always have that, you know, this germ versus terrain thing. Of course, we always have germs up there. Of course, you're going to have some viruses. You just don't mind them at a low level. But do the nasal spray and gargle twice a day, and for sure on days you travel. And I've interviewed some people on my show that have gone 5, 10, 20 years with no viral upper respiratory. That's incredible. I got to the point in 2020, I had gotten COVID, I was seeing so many patients, I was working so hard, I was sick every month. I think that year I had 12 colds. I kept telling my wife, "Oh, another sore throat's coming, another sore throat." And I just, I couldn't get out of it. People, I was on the frequent commentator group at Fox News. I was on national TV probably a couple hundred times. Yeah. They'd bring up Fauci, they'd bring up me. And I'd have a handkerchief, whatever, and they say, "Doc, you gotta pull it together here. You're sick all the time." And so if you go back in 2020, 2021, my nose was stuffed and I was sick all the time. Now doing a nasal spray and gargle or a throat spray twice a day, I've gone a couple years now of stellar health.

Amazing. Stellar. Amazing.

But I'm also using the immune boosters that you mentioned. Yeah. I'm taking a lot more supplements, and I've had on my show, I think, one of the smartest natural medicine doctors out there. I love this guy and he's so evidence-based, Michael Gaeta. I'm not sure if you ever run into him. He runs the Gaeta Institute. He gives the best review of some of these topics. You'd love him. Anyhow, I talked to Gaeta and I said, listen, I'm an allopathic doctor. I prescribe medicines. I wasn't trained in any of the naturopathic fields at all, nothing. I said, what does it really take if you want to do this naturally? He said, you know, you can prescribe one drug probably and handle something. But in the naturopathic world, it's probably about 6 to 8. You just have to accept the fact you're gonna use— you're still trying to get a medicinal effect. You're just trying to do it with supplements. And so it's about 6 to 8. And I encourage people to listen, kind of open up your mind here a little bit. You know, I'll prescribe the heavy-duty drugs when we need to, but let's try this natural approach. And that's our approach at the Wellness Company. And I have no problem people trying the naturopathic approach, and if things get tougher, we prescribe the drugs.

Yeah, I love it. Well, you know, I'm so grateful for you. As I said, you know, looking back at those early stages of, of COVID I saw you standing on the front lines speaking out, acting with courage and conviction, and I just thought, wow, that's a, that's a doctor who really is living a life of, like I said, just great conviction. And I don't know if that's because of your faith or just your, your feelings of, hey, you just want to have a positive positive impact in the world. But, uh, but super grateful for you and all the great things you've done. And just coming on here, the other thing I just— I really appreciate is you've done so much homework. You've been involved in doing, I mean, as many research papers as anybody in your field, which is so incredible that you really understand all the studies and all the evidence and the history. I think that's an incredibly important thing that a lot of people haven't taken the time to learn. And we know history repeats itself, and so it's important thing to understand there as well. So thanks so much for coming on. And, uh, what, where, where are the best places people could find more about you, Dr., Dr. McCullough?

Well, you know, I see patients in the office in Dallas, so my professional website is petermcculloughmd.com. You can follow the instructions on how to request an appointment. I see patients really from all over the country. And, uh, make sure you check out the wellness company there. We've, you know, have a full nationwide company that was born out of the pandemic. With telemedicine, nutraceuticals and supplements, medical emergency kits. We've filled every gap that we've seen in the healthcare system. We've got a physician medical board there. Go to twc.health for the wellness company. Finally, go to McCullough Foundation, mcculloughfnd.org. That's our charitable, uh, uh, 501 organization that funds our independent investigative scholarship. We have over 100 peer-reviewed publications We just came out with a key report on the determinants of autism that changed— the CDC changed their statements on autism based on that report, I'm certain. So McCullough Foundation is big and we're making a big impact thanks to exposure like, you know, on shows like yours. So thank me, thanks for having us.

Well, I appreciate it again. And hey, thanks everybody for tuning in here to the Dr. Josh Axe Show. Remember, each and every week we're diving deep into the science and principles of how you can heal physically, mentally, and spiritually. And take your health and your life to the next level. Hey, one thing I wanna encourage you to do is subscribe to the podcast. Did you know that if you're not subscribed, that certain episodes that are more controversial like today's are often shadowbanned and they don't pop up in your feed, so you don't get access to some of the most powerful life-transforming information like Dr. Peter McCullough shared with us today. Also, if you're watching on YouTube, comment, let us know what is maybe something surprising you you heard, or one of the biggest pieces of wisdom that you learned from Dr. McCullough today. We'd love to hear from you. Also, thank you, all of you that are on mission with us to share this content and help save and transform lives. I'll see you on the next episode.