How Fatherlessness and Pornography Impact Men’s Health and Relationships | Sathiya Sam

Hey everyone, welcome to the Dr. Josh Axe Show. I am your host, Dr. Axe. Each and every week on the show, we cover the science and principles and how to grow in body, mind, and spirit, and take your health and your life to the next level. On today's episode, I'm gonna be interviewing Sathya Sam. He is an expert when it comes to growing as a man, and this is important for both men and women. In today's society, there is so much, uh, I'm just gonna use the word garbage out there, mind pollution, poison, toxicity when it comes to our character, when it comes to who we're trying to become. And this is something I'm very passionate about on the show, is helping people become all they can be. And there's really a deep connection between our spiritual health, our mental health, and our physical health. And I can tell you from working with tens of thousands of patients over the years and educating millions of others The number one issue related to health today is not related to diet. It's not related to exercise or even toxins in the environment. It has to do with our spiritual and mental health, the way we think, uh, the things we believe in life. And so that's what I— why I wanted to bring Cynthia on today is really to dive into what are the things today that are sickening our souls? What are the things today that are corrupting our minds? What are those things that are, uh, those addictions that are destroying our life. And we'll go through how to break through those, some really powerful information today. And Cynthia, uh, really focuses on helping men boost their confidence at the same time strengthening their integrity through a Bible-backed system. We're going to get all into that today and a whole lot more. But before I do that, do me a favor, please subscribe or hit the notification bell so you don't miss an episode. By the way, also, we're going to dive in today the, uh, you know, part of why testosterone is tanking in men, also the connection to fatherlessness, the psychological and physical effects of pornography, and so much more. Sethaya, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, Josh. It's a pleasure to be here.

Well, we're going to dive right in and talk about, uh, you know, this, this, these addictions in men that are so prevalent today. And by the way, sometimes these are uncomfortable topics, but they're really important. I mean, I, I was just, you know, uh, as I was preparing to interview you, wanted to look up some of the statistics statistics on how many men are addicted to pornography. And from the studies I saw, there were multiple surveys and studies. One of them said at least 77%, um, some were high in the 80 percentile for men. And then for women, it was that, you know, 41% on one, 48% on the other, in terms of how, uh, people that were looking at it on a weekly basis. And so anyways, the numbers are really staggering. And then also I saw, um, some of the other health effects, which I don't want to steal your thunder, so if you share those, if not, I'll cover those, but the health effects were really negative as well. So I want to start off talking about— first, before we even dive into that, I'd love for you to share sort of the state of, you know, psychological, emotional health, uh, of men today.

Yeah, it's, it's a really important subject. The, the main challenge that men are facing right now is the rapid advancement of technology that is taking advantage of, um, our sexual desires and needs, but also just our dopamine circuits within our body and our brain. So, uh, you know, my line of work, I'm helping guys with addiction, specifically porn addiction, quite a bit. And what we're seeing is the issue is not just, you know, they have the existence of an addiction. As you and I both know, anytime there's an issue, what's visible is really just the tip of the iceberg, right? It's the 10%. The 90% underneath is exactly what you were talking about. It's spiritual dysfunction, um, it's psychological illness, um, and then you have people who are getting exposed to things like pornography, even social media, which is not pornography, but sort of like the gateway drug to pornography. Um, getting exposed to that at a young age, becoming dependent on it. So there's a developmental component as well that leaves men, once they enter their adult years, relationship, uh, just with relationship dysfunction sexually. They don't even perform the way they're supposed to because their bodies have been messed up by pornography. And then you think about how that affects someone's worldview, their thought life. Um, it literally just spreads across the board, um, and it's, it's devastating. And I— the one thing you said, the one thing I love about your show is you're about people reaching their potential, right? This is about people becoming everything that God made them to be. And it's becoming very clear that things like pornography make that almost impossible. It's that devastating to the brain and the body.

Yeah, you know, some of the, the studies I was reading before, before the episode were showing pornography is connected to erectile dysfunction, lower levels of testosterone, less satisfaction, less attraction to their partners. Yes. You know, poor relationships. I mean, numerous, numerous health issues it's connected with. And I think also, you know, there's this— and I think COVID exacerbated everything. You know, that's something else you really see is more people went, spent more time on social media, whether it was via the Gateway or the site specifically. But obviously, again, this sort of spiritual and mental sickness is obviously bad for the body. Now, I want to say this as well. It's sort of crazy to me. The media does everything within their power to make it seem like it could actually be healthy. Yeah, I mean, I mean, they are twisting things. They're trying to set up the studies in a way, do everything they can to protect, protect it. Let me ask you, why do you think that is?

Well, um, the porn sites of our world today, which is about 35% of the entire internet, they get more hits.

Wow.

Than Amazon, Netflix, and Twitter or X combined. So we are talking about a multi-multi-billion dollar industry. There's a lot of money behind it. And if you, um, we should maybe even get into this, Josh, which is the link between sex trafficking and porn. Um, yeah, pornography in the porn industry is behind a lot more than we realize. So I think you actually have people who are forking out money to make sure that the narrative stays porn positive, because if people did ever find out just how devastating it is, you would wipe out a $100 billion-plus industry.

Well, you know, this just came out in the news last week. Kanye West, you know, starting his own, you know, pornography site. And that was something else, too. You know, I mean, he's been so back and forth in terms of just, you know, his, you know, some of his mental health issues. But all that being said, you know, there's another celebrity, you know, who is, you know, promoting such things.

Yeah. And this is becoming— there's actually a huge divide in celebrity culture because you have, yeah, someone like Kanye who, you know, we actually just did a clip of him not too long ago where he was talking about how bad pornography is. So he obviously is very, you know, flip-floppy. But you actually have a lot of celebrities like Billie Eilish who came out and shared about how pornography was basically her sex ed and she started having, you know, sexual activity. And then what she thought was normal was actually completely degrading, completely debilitating. And she just didn't know. She was just a young girl. Gosh, lots of pornography and just thought these things were normal. Terry Crews is another person who's been very much an advocate for anti-porn and has shared about how he almost lost his entire marriage over this thing, which people have a hard time believing until you get into the weeds of it. And then you realize actually these stories happen all the time. The divorce rate's super high and people talk about, you know, couples changing and they grow apart. But actually pornography is involved in 50 to 60% of most divorce cases. It's actually cited as as a reason. So, um, this is like, this is a very big thing. So I'm always grateful when there are celebrities, you know, like that, or, uh, you know, even people like yourself who are brave enough to talk about this with their audiences, because it's a very prevalent issue.

Well, again, on the show I want to cover topics, even if they're uncomfortable, that really make a difference and impact in, in our physical health and our spiritual health and our mental health. And of course, this is very, very high up on the list. Let me, let me ask you, in terms of when you think about the biggest side effects, uh, and I mentioned some that more health-related. But what are some of the things that— the side effects you see when somebody is addicted to porn?

So there's 3 categories I'd put them in. So the first would be the relationship side of it. So, um, there's a myriad— there's over 100 studies that I'm aware of that have demonstrated that when people are watching pornography in a relationship, honestly, whether they're doing it together to maybe spice up the sex life or it's just one person who's watching in secrecy, relationship satisfaction tanks. Um, there was one study where they, they measured 31 different relationship metrics, and they found that 30 of them were all negatively impacted by pornography, and the other one was neutral. So, and again, we could slice this 100 different ways. Relationship quality suffers, and attached to that is sexual satisfaction in the relationship as well. Which is counterintuitive to some people because they would think, well, you know, watching pornography, it gives people ideas and it kind of adds some spice and whatever. The problem is you end up conditioning yourself, especially the guy side of it— I'll speak to that experience more— you end up conditioning yourself to experience arousal apart from your partner, which becomes a huge problem in the course of time. And so you see sexual satisfaction starts to tank, and, um, the people start to grow apart, there starts to be less need for each other, and it becomes a huge issue. So that's, that's the big bucket. I'm a big believer that the reason we exist on this planet is for relationships. So I think if something's negatively affecting our relationships, it's worth our attention. The second element is the physical arena. So there's 5 major things that we know for sure are caused physically by consuming pornography. So the first, you already mentioned it, Dr. Axe, it's erectile dysfunction. In 2001, the rate of erectile dysfunction among men under the age of 40 was about 5%, which is what you would expect. That's not really a young man's issue. Today it's believed to be as high as 30 to 35%. So these are young men who are supposed to be in sort of the peak of their sexual development, um, and they're having major performance issues. Uh, you also have like, again, these are more male-specific, but like delayed ejaculation, premature ejaculation, all these kinds of impacts on the sex life. And then there's actually some studies now that would suggest pornography can cause eating disorders, um, especially in men. There was a specific study where they saw that basically, you know, men who viewed pornography, they exhibited more eating disorder kind of behavior. And the link was the body dysmorphia. So they're, they're watching and you're feeling insecure about your body, something we can all relate to. Um, but that can lead to really extreme behavior. And the fifth one that I think is really interesting is, uh, as you know, uh, we have an infertility crisis in North America, in particular in Western societies. And everybody's talking about— obviously there's, you know, um, there's, uh, hormone disruptors, there's sedentary lifestyle, there's a bunch of things that are at play. Nobody talks about pornography, but there was a study that actually suggested that people who view pornography have lower sperm counts and poor semen quality. So it even can, can affect someone's ability to reproduce. So I can pause there. I can keep going if you want, but, um, there's a lot to unpack obviously in the, the physical arena there.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, there, there's a lot we could say. One thing I do wanna point out, you know, we look, there was a study done on social media and Instagram, and so, uh, young women, especially teenagers, they're comparing their own bodies to other influencers on social media, and that's causing body dysmorphia. But it's a very similar thing, you know, when you see, you know, a, a, another, uh, you know, couple who maybe they're in great shape or doing certain things, and it's— again, it's a, uh, there's a, you know, a level of comparison there that is going to affect your self-esteem. You know, there's one other thing I want to point out too, in, uh, that we had mentioned, um, that I'd mentioned earlier, and, and you had brought up such a a good, uh, a good point here. There's a sermon that I listened to years ago, and, um, and it was by Andy Stanley, and it was called The Principle of the Path. And it was all about like, okay, is it, you know, is it, is it, uh, is it wrong to spend a lot of time on social media or following people that are attractive, or what, you know? Right. Well, I don't know if it's wrong, but it's a path, you know. The whole thing is, I mean, even what you're sharing here, a lot of times I think this is how people get sucked in. It's like Well, it's morally gray, and so that's okay. Yeah. You know, but it's a path. Yeah. But I also do wanna say, I think Jesus is very clear on this. And if you wanna know, is it moral or not to look at pornography? And Jesus says in Matthew 5:28, but I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully and has, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And so has already committed adultery. I mean, that's, you know, breaking a Ten Commandment. It's obviously a grave sin. And so all that being said, if you want to know the most virtuous person that ever lived, his take on it, it's that it's evil. It's sin. You're doing something very bad if you are looking at pornography.

Yeah. And, you know, the one thing that people often, like, this is a very common question we get is like, how far is too far? Or where's the line? You know, people basically what they're asking is, what can I get away with, right? Yeah. And the one thing that's so important about that verse you just shared is, you know, there's another translation that says, he who looks at a woman with lustful intent. And so it's not even about the behavior. It's actually about the intent of the heart. So, you know, even like a double take, you know, or, or position, sometimes people position themselves to be in not so great situations, right? And it's exactly what you said. The question is not how far can I go down this path? The question is, how can I find a superior path. And that's actually a good segue into the third arena that is really impacted by people who view pornography, which is their spiritual life. And if I could break it down a little bit, I would say spiritual life would be a sense of purpose. It'd be the values you live by and the ability to feel connected to God. And all three of those are impaired. I think we can, we all obviously can understand how this would impact our relationship with God or our ability to connect with him. I think that's a given. One thing that's really interesting to note, there's a guy named Jay Stringer and he did extensive research on people who had unwanted sexual behavior. And he was evaluating, it was like what they call multivariate analysis. So they're trying to see like, okay, there's all these different factors in people's lives, which are the most impacted by somebody viewing pornography. And what they found is that the greatest contributing factor or the greatest correlate was a sense of meaningless or purposelessness in life. And I was, I was at a Jordan Peterson lecture one time and he used to do addiction research and whether you like him or hate him or whatever, you know, he's He's very—

I'm a big fan, so—

oh, perfect. Okay, great. Um, and, uh, he said— he wasn't even talking about addiction, that wasn't what his lecture was about, but just in the middle he made this statement. He said, you know, the main reason that people quit addiction is because they find something better to do. And, um, there's, you know, there's another phrase like idle hands make the devil's work. And I think that's what a lot of, uh— again, I'll speak to men, but I'm sure women would be similar— a lot of things we're running into today is, uh, that we're bored. Now I say bored with quotation marks because I don't think we're actually bored. I think what's happened is we are so used to being overstimulated that when we're experiencing normal levels of stimulation, we think we're bored. And, um, and that boredom or that sense of meaningless, purposelessness, um, I think it's driving a lot of people to pornography and other things. And it's not just driving them there. In fact, rarely that's what drives them there. I should say that differently. There's different reasons that people find it, but it's the meaninglessness that keeps them there because they don't have a better reason to not do it.

I absolutely agree. You know, here's the thing. There's a, there's a, uh, spiritual leader I love, and here's what he says. He said, um, busyness, which is really equated to what you're talking about— you're doing something to try and find meaning in your life, but it's, it's artificial significance. It's not real. That's pornography in a nutshell. It's something— it's not, it's not a real person in a way. It's not a real relationship. Yeah, you're not really connecting in that way. It's artificial. And so it's like thinking— it's almost like, I mean, I'm just going to give a health correlation here. It's like giving your body a double bacon cheeseburger, and that's been— or, or a, you know, a fried donut. You know, it's like you, you, you're, you're giving your body something and you, you think that it's going to be doing your body— you know, there's a level of your body saying, this is good, this is good. Yeah. Long term, it's destroying you from the inside out.

We actually say that porn is fast food intimacy. Temporarily satisfies the craving, but it ultimately leaves you hungrier and in worse shape.

That's so good. That's a, that's a, that's a fantastic, fantastic analogy. So, so I love what you're saying there. So, so meaning, this is why people are addicted, um, you know, have a lot of these addictions, is they, they don't have meaning in their lives in other areas. And so what, what is your remedy to some of that in terms of if somebody, if somebody comes to you and you're counseling them and they say, listen, Cynthia, I, I'm addicted I don't want to be addicted. I want to find meaning in my life. Well, what is your advice to them?

I think you have to start slow. You know, that's the reality. I think what actually gives people meaning in life, there are things like there's vocational initiatives, like, you know, you and I are fortunate that we get to create content, we get to impact audiences at large. It doesn't have to be your career. You know, I think the— there was a British journalist, he did a viral TED Talk about addiction about 10 years ago. His name is Johann Hari, and his summation of the TED Talk, I'll give it to you in one sentence. The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. So what gives people a sense of meaning and purpose in life? I think everything starts with relationship. And that's what the data would suggest as well. That's what the Bible would suggest as well. We're wired for community. We're designed to have a place of belonging. And I think that's where we find a sense of meaning and purpose first. It's in our relationships. And I think a really neat thing that happens in our program when people do start to work through our system is God starts to talk to them and people start to uncover these, these hidden desires. Or sometimes it's rekindling an old flame of a dream or a vision that they had, but, you know, because they were struggling, they just felt like they weren't worthy enough, or it affected their productivity, and so they weren't able to really channel their energies towards it. So these things also can happen if you do it the right way. And, and this is why I, I love talking to functional medicine practitioners like yourself, because you guys get that you always have to get to the roots of the issue, whether we're talking about physical health, mental health, emotional health, whatever. And so we're big believers that, you know, finding meaning and purpose in life, that should actually be a natural byproduct if your journey is actually taking care of the more causal elements of your situation. And it happens first at a relational level where you start to forge meaningful relationships and connections that add value to your life. And then secondarily, God begins to like, you know, pour some gasoline on those fires of the talents you have, the dreams, the visions, and all those things. And when those come together, Man, it's— you're unstoppable. It's a beautiful thing.

No, that's so good. It's so good. Yeah, I think that that's, that's the, uh, that, that is the cure, you know. I think that even when I've helped people with health issues, it's what, what gets somebody away from the fast foods or the, those addictive, addicted behaviors on the side of sugar and some of those foods. It's, yeah, well, I want to be healthier more than that. I want to be at my future daughter's wedding right? More than that, right? It's— yeah, you have to have a greater want and desire. You know, it's interesting when you look at, uh, Buddhism, part of what Buddha recommended is being content with what you have and sort of almost eliminating a lot of your desires, trying to get away from those. What Jesus really did though, we see this in the Bible, and Paul said transform your desires. You know, it's not that you shouldn't want to be seen and recognized, it's you should want to be seen and recognized by me more than by, you know, the, the, the majority of the populace. You know, it's a very— it's sort of transforming those desires from the bad to the good. Because I think a lot of our desire— again, like somebody that's looking at pornography, what's really going on there is they want connection. Yeah, they want a deep intimate relationship with somebody that they find attractive in certain ways. But it's like, okay, for like— I think about for Chelsea and I, it's like, okay, I want to make sure that my intentions are pure and that what is really most important for me to be attracted to— my wife is spiritually strong, my wife is mentally stimulating, right? She's physically attractive too, but there's this whole thing going on with, with all of her, and I just, you know, totally in love with her spirit and soul. And so, and then I, I, I really desire to be deeply connected in an intimate relationship with her. But it's like, if you're just substituting that for You know, porn, you're, you'll never ever be satisfied. It's like trying to put a square peg in round holes, they say, you know. It just doesn't, it doesn't work. You know, something else you said that I think's important, and by the way, a study that I saw as well in preparing for the interview was almost— this is one study, there's others, but one found that, um, nearly 40% of kids learn about sex on the internet rather than from their parents or, or other places?

I would say that's no, that's low, that's a low number.

Yeah. And it might be, it might be very low. This is just one smaller study done. And so I am curious on what are the numbers that you've seen and what are your thoughts? And then I'd love for you also to share your thoughts on, because honestly, this would scare me to death. Like, I would never let my— I, you know, we, we will educate our daughters on this much sooner, uh, than we would let a school do it. But what are your thoughts more so on public, you know, learning on the internet and then public schools educating our kids on sexuality, and what are they teaching them today?

Yeah, see, and I think this is really getting to the heart of the matter, because to be honest, my— I think in a perfect ideal world, my practice one day would not exist, right? I think that that would be the dream, right, is people are getting away from pornography and there's no need for someone like me. And the only way that happens is exactly what you said. We have to get to the kids. It has to be there. Otherwise, we're going to be just kind of playing cleanup and trying to juggle these balls in the air. So the average age of first exposure to pornography today is somewhere between the age of 8 to 10 years old. And it's not by accident. It's not just because kids are on smartphones and you never know when there's going to be an ad or something pops up. Actually, the porn industries know better than anyone else that the sooner you get exposed to pornography, the more likely they are to have you for life. And long-term value is the name of the game when it comes to growing a business. So they are—

they—

there's little hooks on the internet that allow these kids to kind of go down these trails, get very light, gentle exposure that eventually escalates later on as they kind of develop. It's, it's all by design. None of it is by accident. So We have to be really careful with kids online. I'm not like a super restrictive kind of person. I don't think you just keep your kids off the internet and, you know, because that's just not realistic. Like, we live in an internet-driven world. So I think it's very important that parents actually take on the role of being educators in this arena first before a school system or their social systems or whatever else it might be. And that's really difficult for parents to hear because this is an uncomfortable subject. A lot of parents say, but I messed up in this area. Who am I to talk about standards? Or I don't even know how to talk about this without turning red in the face. You know, I get it. You know, it's not the easiest thing in the world, but we have to think about the alternative. The alternative is you have a story like Billie Eilish, whose parents did not talk to her about sex or pornography or anything else. And so she learned on the internet, she learned online by the content she was seeing. And what happened then is she got herself into some really dangerous situations, really degrading situations as a young girl. Young girl before she had even hit her 20s, and she thought they were normal. And this is the risk we run when parents are quiet at home. So I, I really think it starts there. Um, and the, the best advice I've heard, you know, I'm, I'm a young parent, so my, my, I just had my first 6 months ago. I'm new to this. And so the advice that I'm presenting here is more from parents that are much more experienced in this area. But the best advice that I've heard is talk to your kids about sex early and often, and let that, let it be known to them that they can come to you and it's okay. So that way, when they do get a smartphone and you let them know, hey, when you get online, you might see some, like, some strange content. If you ever see anything like this, and you can give a description of it, just come to me and let me know. You're not going to be in any trouble. But being able to keep those lines of communication open at an early age is really, really valuable. And look, if parents are listening and, you know, you have kids who are a bit older now and you haven't done that, there's no time like the present to start. It's never too late. It's better late than never. But you can be that voice of reason in your kids' ears, and you could save them for making some really bad decisions down the road. So cannot overstate the role that parents can play in the more preventative part of this.

Yeah, I mean, I, I still remember the day my dad having the sex talk with me. I still remember we're okay at our house and, you know, outside of Troy, Ohio, and him having the conversation with me. And I remember him being uncomfortable, um, but it was a good, you know, it was a good, it was a good connecting moment with my dad. And I think that again, we were both a little embarrassed but you know what? Yeah. Um, I'm so, I'm so glad that I learned about it from my dad and not from the internet, not from a school system. And, um, and I'm glad my dad was brave and courageous enough to do it. And I think that parents that don't do it, there's a lack of, again, I know this might sound harsh, but there tends to be a lack of courage, wisdom, or love, or all of the above when it comes to why you don't have that conversation with them, or or, or laziness slash apathy. You know, I think that, you know, it's, it's, uh, obviously it's, it's incredibly important today. And I just— another story I'll share. We were— I was at a, at a, uh, philanthropic event, and a father shared with the group that his daughter— and by the way, this was a man who was pretty upstanding, I would say, that, you know, was really expected, respected in the business community. And he was just in tears because his daughter who, um, again, you get— you see this all the time, but you would think very moral, you know, goody-goody girl, but ends up, you know, going the wrong site once or twice and then ends up them blackmailing her and then ends up in sex trafficking.

Yeah, right.

I mean, it's just— why? It's just, you know, it's heartbreaking.

Yeah, that's another really common one, especially certain platforms like Snapchat, Instagram, any, any platforms that have messaging. Very dangerous. There's a lot of predators out there, and that story that you just articulated, you'd be surprised how many hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of stories like that are out there all the time. And it puts, it puts girls in really precarious situations. I don't know if you've heard at all about kind of the, the rise and fall of Pornhub the last few years. There's a big exposé done on them in 2021, I believe it was. Visa and MasterCard, you they pulled their relationships with them, um, refused to kind of partner with them based on what was exposed, which was basically that number 1, about 80% of their content featured, uh, girls that were underage. Um, number 2 is, uh, there was tons of sex trafficking that was affiliated with a lot of this content. Um, but then number 3 is the blackmailing that was happening. So these girls were basically, yeah, getting exposed online. There's nothing they can do about it, and now they have to be quiet or they have to do worse things for them to not be further exposed. Um, and so these— yeah, this is how— this was like the big story in this exposé that was done by a journalist in the New York Times. This was the story of, I think, a 14 or 15-year-old girl. Um, someone took a video or some— had some pictures in high school, started to circulate around the school, and she basically became suicidal over it. And she left the school. She couldn't find any school where people didn't know her story. And so she basically like ran away from home home, became homeless. Like, it was this awful, awful story, and she's not even 18 yet. She hasn't even hit adulthood, and her life's already been completely derailed. So yeah, there's a lot to be— again, the internet's not— we don't want to be the boogeyman about this, but you know, you have to be careful. You got to use some wisdom around, um, online usage.

You know, how can I— I mentioned this earlier, I was so blessed to have a dad who had these talks with me, who always showed up, who was there. Yeah, but there's a lot of people who don't have that father or father figure in their life. Well, how much do you think that's playing into a lot of the addictions today, some of the things going on, and, um, and, and any, any solutions there?

Yeah, I, I think it's a huge part of it. You, you really can't understate how important the role of father is in someone's life. Uh, you know, we have 3 pillars to our recovery process, and the 3rd pillar is identity. And I don't think anybody plays a bigger role in instilling identity in a person than the father, whether it's their daughter or their son. Yeah, there's just something about a father like looking you in the eyes and telling you who you are, or even just modeling what it looks like to be a person of integrity, a person of character, a man of God. Um, so I think that goes a long way. I think we know that when fathers aren't in the home, the likelihood of criminality increases, uh, the likelihood of poor performance, even socioeconomic status. I mean, it's all across the board. Uh, there's an interesting link with porn usage in prisons, and I forget what the stat is, Now, around what percentage of people in prison are fatherless? But it's very, very high. You know, it's probably 70, 80%. Yeah. Ted Bundy. I don't know if you— I don't know if you ever heard the story. Ted Bundy was one of the most maybe notorious serial killers of the last 50 years. Right. You know, and he was— yeah, he would groom women and then he would rape them and he would kill them. It was— he was brutal. And I believe he did it 29 documented times, if I'm remembering correctly. He got the death penalty. That was his sentence. And the day before he was going to get put to death, there was obviously, you can imagine, a flood of media inquiries. Everybody wanted to interview him and he turned them all down except for one. He agreed to be interviewed by Dr. James Dobson on Focus on the Family. And in the middle of the interview, because again, this had everything to do with just his life and how does somebody get into this behavior and all that. And he asked him, you know, what do you think was the single contributing cause? Like, what, what contributed more than anything else to you, you know, living your life this way and ending up in this place? And he did not even think twice about it. He said pornography. He got exposed to pornography, and he said, I was watching pornography. And he said, eventually what I was watching wasn't enough. And so naturally, like, again, today what happens is what you watch isn't enough, so you watch more extreme content or more obscure stuff, and then eventually it leads to pain for sex, or in this case, he sought a thrill a different way, but he attributed it to pornography. And then he went on to say, he said, and if you would have asked 90% of the other guys in the same prison as me— again, he's obviously in one of the, you know, hardest prisons you can be in— he said 90% of them would tell you the exact same thing. Pornography is actually where it all started. And, um, it's— it is because of the, the escalation in behavior to kind of get that hit, to feel alive, to get in touch with with yourself a little bit. The other side of it though is if you think about the narratives of pornography typically, you know, I had an addiction for 15 years, so I'm relatively familiar, although I've been out of it for about 8 years now. A lot of the narratives are actually very, you know, male domineering. There's a lot of violence and aggression towards women. So there's a lot of hidden messages that sort of get soaked in when you're watching, especially when you're watching at a young age. Your mind is still developing. Um, and again, it's not that everybody's going to turn out to be a serial killer like Ted Bundy. It's an extreme, but it illustrates the severity of how this can affect someone's development, and certainly how the link of, you know, criminality and fatherlessness and all that stuff tie in.

You, you know, there's something else that, um, in addition to some of the amazing things you said that I think is— that, that I'd love to hear your take on, but it's, it's that You know, you start to see people as being less than human, less than divine. It's like, you know, there's this beautiful quote by C.S. Lewis, and he said if we would really see other humans in their spiritual form, we would sort of cower that there's gods and goddesses in terms of their, you know, divine nature and, and just, just be wowed and awed by them. And I think there's a level of, as you mentioned, the word degradation in terms of you go from what should be seeing the person, whether it's a, a friend or an enemy, as this divine being that God created, an image bearer of God, uh, that, that, that was created to do extraordinary things, to where you keep going down and down and down and down to where you see somebody as a virus you almost need to eradicate. And, um, there are plenty of people that have that worldview. I mean, even if you look at some of these people that are part of the World Economic Forum and in some of these other areas. I mean, they have said, you know, humans are like a virus. Yeah. And, and a lot of this goes back to what you're sharing with identity, you know. Um, this is, you know, this is— yeah. And so it's not only— it's our own identity, but it's also our— the way we view ourselves is the way we view others. If you view yourself as a virus and others as a virus, or others as less than human, it's, um, obviously there's going to be psychological, and then based on that actual, you know, repercussions physically.

Yeah, the embedded message of pornography is that your needs, your wants, and your desires matter more than anyone else's, right? Like, we know that biblical intimacy is selfless in nature. It prioritizes the other person first. It's not that you don't matter, it's just that the shuffling of priorities is reversed. And when you engage in compulsive sexual behavior, especially pornography, You essentially are saying whatever the expense is, whatever the cost is for these people to be on this screen and the implications of sex trafficking and everything else, they don't matter as much as my own needs and my own desires and wants in this moment.

And you know, I did a whole episode on this, on today's identity. We went from having, you know, you know, the Judeo-Christian is all about divine identity, right? And then you look at traditional identity, which still there's a level of duty. There's a level of still men protecting women, chivalry. In the right way. But then you have modern identity, which it's all about me. Yeah, everybody needs to cater to me, my needs. You can continue to go on, but that's— it's, it's important.

No, that, that's exactly— and, and that's a, that's a great demonstration of how porn— why pornography has become so embedded in our society, because those messages actually parallel each other, right? The message in the larger society is, you know, you can define your truth, it's whatever your truth is. If that was your experience, that's cool, man. And the whole concept of who we are, identity, it's never been more weak in my opinion. You know, people are— I mean, I live in Canada, you know, some of the laws that are being passed here and some of what constitutes normal behavior is, um, it's egregious, you know. And when we think about what real biblical identity is, um, and then you have something like pornography that just reinforces the message, right, that you matter and it doesn't matter what the expenses of others as long as it works for you. You, it's totally okay. And I think, um, you can just imagine how—

I imagine—

so for me, I got exposed to pornography when I was 11 years old. And you can just imagine, like, if you develop that way your, your most formative years, that's the way you're programming yourself to basically, you know, get your needs met and experience quote-unquote intimacy, that fast food intimacy we were talking about. You can just imagine what happens when you get into a real relationship and you don't, you don't have a lot to bring to the table because you don't know how to connect with people, you're selfish, you know, you become way more focused on yourself, and your concept of intimacy is purely transactional. And not just transactional, but actually, how do I win in this transaction? How do I get what I want first? Um, so this is like the— this is the virus part of it that you're talking about, where it, it does not just affect one area of our lives. In fact, the sexual parts of our lives are the least affected by pornography. It's, it's everything else that gets deeply impacted. And again, it always comes back to those relationships, obviously, and how we view ourselves.

Yeah. And another layer on top of that, one of the biggest things I think people say who are— and this is with any addiction or any sort of immoral act— but it's that, well, this is only impacting me, you know. And not even looking at pornography, I mean, even like, let me give you an example. If I am walking down the street and I'm with my wife Uh, Chelsea and I, and I, you know, look over and stare blatantly another— like, I am harming her. I'm aware I would be harming her spiritually, mentally, physically, right? Harming her, harming our relationship, harming our children. Like, the repercussions are so much greater than people would realize. You're harming actually future generations. Yeah. And so it's, it's really, really, uh, way, way more damaging than people would realize. But that's the thing with almost any immoral act. People think, oh,— or many of those axes, it's only affecting me. Now, you can't do something that just affects you, even epigenetically. Epigenetics, it's just not true.

There's no—

it's just not true.

No, it's really true. There, there's an organization called Exodus Cry, um, and they're really big on kind of raising awareness about sex trafficking and how damaging it is. Um, and for 5 years, they started to study people who were going to these brothels in in the biggest red light districts in the world. So Amsterdam and Thailand and, you know, all around the world. So 5 years they're studying these guys, they're surveying them, they're just asking them questions. And after 5 years, number one, uh, the first discovery was that the porn industry is the marketing department for sex traffickers. So, so pornography is sort of the, the entryway that eventually leads to some of this worst trafficking. We've already touched on that. Um, but the, the second finding that I thought was really interesting is is they noticed that all of the buyers of sex at these brothels had one thing in common. So different stages of life, different upbringings, different socioeconomic status, different ethnicities and races and religions. One thing they all had in common is they got exposed to porn at a young age.

Yeah.

So when we're talking about this multi-generational impact, it's twofold. Number one is, yes, as a parent, you know, you do your part. The other thing we probably need to talk about is, as a parent, you also need to set an example, right? You have to be that example. And it's one of the things, you know, we work with a lot of fathers, and it's one of the things that we encourage them when they're trying to find that, that why, you know, that reason, the reason to quit, the reason that has to be more enticing than the pornography itself. A lot of that digging in often lands in future generations. It's, I don't want to pass this on to my son. I want my son to live in a better place, and I don't want to be part of the problem. I want to be part of the solution. I think it's a really noble thing. And going back to what we said at the beginning, relationship is what drives a lot of our behavior in life, good or bad. And it's a really beautiful thing when people can tap into, man, the relationship that I have in my life, the friendships, certainly, you know, with my children, even with my parents, my peers. If I can be a better person, free of pornography, living a virtuous moral life, on fire, on purpose, this living with a reason, um, that of course is going to affect the people around us. So there, there's no such thing as like, this is just you and your screen. Um, the, the network effect here, the ripples are significant. And it's true whether you're watching pornography and you're struggling with this stuff and you're filling your mind with this junk, but it's also true if you make a decision to get cleaned, you know, and to get free and to live a life clean this, the network effect is dramatic, not just in this lifetime but in the lives to come as well.

Yeah, it'll impact your life in such a big way. You know, I remember— let me say one of the things that really I feel very blessed to have, outside of probably my first 2 years of college, having, you know, exposing myself to it outside of that, really not. And the reason is, is my parents, uh, and you really plugged me into a lot of great Christian camps, and I went to Christian school through 8th grade and those sort of things. And they struck the fear of God in me with it, which I'm so blessed by. Because again, for me, like, I remember someone coming and giving a talk and saying, looking at this will harm your future marriage, it destroys your, you know, brain, it hurts your soul. It does. And me walking out of there thinking, I, you know— and I remember being at someone's house and them trying to, you know, open a magazine and pornography and things, and like thinking in my head, yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to look at that because Again, I, I had the, the opposite of what most people get today, which is it's good for you, which is so insane. It's crazy. Instead, again, my parents, they got me this exposure of it will rot your soul in your entire life. Yeah. And I think we need to get back to that. And, you know, the message, because it's true. Statistically, it's true. Morally, it's true. The greatest, you know, ethical and moral people of all time, uh, would say that it is, uh, you know, completely destructive in every way possible. So anyways, I am, you know, I am grateful to my parents for that, for sure. Well, let me ask this based on faith, because I know you've referenced a few times just faith. Any other thoughts on how your own faith has impacted your perspective on this and, and also how other people's, you know, because I You know, if I were asked whether somebody is— and I think all these world religions see this as immoral, whether it be Christianity, Judaism, I think likely even, even Islam or Buddhism. I think there's a level of like, if I think about what Gandhi would have said about it or other, like they would not have approved. Almost any spiritual guru of all time would have condemned it. But from your own spiritual standpoint, well, how has that influenced your perspective?

I mean, tremendously. So, you know, I grew up in a pastor's home. I was a pastor for 10 years myself, did Christian education from grade 4 to 12. So very similar story to you, actually, Josh. So, so I grew up, I was fortunate to grow up with, let's call it like the moral infrastructure, like a pretty good concept of what was right and wrong. I think the problem with, with my story or with my experience is I, I really had reduced my experience of God to right or wrong. It was like either you do what God tells you to do and you're in good standing with him, or you don't, you fall short. And there was a lot of shame associated with that. So my, my experience younger was a lot of shame. It was very shame-driven, and it was sort of like, to not look bad and to not be bad, do the right thing. And one of the really cool things— I was a university researcher at one point, and I was in this very atheistic, anti-God environment. And I remember having this season, probably 6 to 8 months, where my faith was really being challenged. And challenged in a good way. Like, the people were not abrasive, but they were atheistic nonetheless. And they're saying, how do you know God's real, you know? And why, why do you believe all that stuff? And you're just doing that because you grew up in a pastor's home. You don't actually believe that, you know? Like, kind of just getting all these voices, right?

Yeah.

And I did a lot of soul searching, a lot of digging. It's probably another podcast for another day.. But my conclusion was, I don't have all the reasons. I don't have all the answers. I don't exactly, you know, know, but in my heart of hearts, I know that God is real and I know I want to give my life to him. And I, I committed my life to him, but I, I agreed to do it on different terms. I, this was, I, I could not agree to, to be in a relationship with God where I had to be perfect. And truthfully, that was my main framework up until that point. It had to be about relationship. It had to just be about learning to connect with God. And one of the beautiful things that happened when I prioritized just building a fluid, dynamic relationship with God is my desire to watch pornography diminished. Not entirely, but it diminished. Not because it was the wrong thing to do, but because I knew it was gonna affect my connection with him. And that connection with him became so valuable that I was willing to do whatever it took to protect it. And so I think for people to really integrate their spiritual life into this concept, it's not don't watch pornography because it's bad for you. It's actually you could have this robust, fluid relationship with the living God, and you would be crazy to not do everything you could in your life to protect it at all costs. Yeah, whatever that cost is, pay it. And the really cool thing— and I did not know this right away, it took me about, about really 3 to 5 years of earnest effort to make a full recovery. Story. It's way too long. I didn't know what I was doing the first couple years, but, um, but the last little bit when I really start to gather momentum, the one thing I realized is, um, you know, I used to think that I had to twist God's arm to, to kind of like help me out, you know, like I would throw up these desperation prayers and begging him for forgiveness or begging him to give me the strength to fight off my temptations. And the one thing I just realized, wait a minute, God has instructed me to do this, like this is in his word, and he wouldn't ask me to do something if he wasn't setting me up in my life to do it. You know, he would be cruel. He'd be cruel to set a standard that would be impossible. And obviously on our own it's impossible. We need his strength and we need, we need Jesus to do it. But the point here is I realize God's more excited about my freedom than me. And that, that took all the pressure off because now it was not like this combative, like, I hope I'm in God's good books. It's like we're in this together. He's helping me. He's excited about my progress and he wants me to reach that place of freedom as well. And that was when things really began to take off for me. You know, the, the rest was history. I had my last relapse to 2016. And yeah, we've been able to help, you know, hundreds, thousands of people since. It's been a lot of fun. But those spiritual parts, I mean, those are the, that's what undergirds this whole thing.

That's so powerful. And I just say, I appreciate your vulnerability and authenticity with all this. I think it's so so, uh, it's obviously such an important discussion. And I think uncomfortable— I mean, so many people, you know, would, would are uncomfortable with the conversation. But I think again, it's so life transformative when you can break free, as you're saying. And I think that the, you know, another— you mentioned Jordan Peterson earlier. He mentioned this when he was doing his lectures at Harvard and at University of Toronto. When he first started, became a professor at Harvard, um, when he would share the biblical narratives and stories, which help us give ourselves a moral framework for the world and how to know what right and wrong is, he said 80-90% of people knew the stories and had the moral framework.

Yeah. Wow.

Well, 20-some years later, 30 years later, he said that the numbers almost flipped from 80-20 to 20-80. Wow. And so, so that's another challenge today. We talked about school systems, educate— educating our children, but you know, it's I think that there's, there's an issue there because how does somebody decide what's right or wrong? How do you decide what's more and more? Because if you're reading on the internet right now, you don't realize it, but there are, as you mentioned, hundreds of billions of dollars being poured into the porn industry, sex trafficking, and all these things. They want you to believe it's good for you. Yeah. And so you'll even go to a medical site, whether it be WebMD or Medical News Today or Healthline or whatever, and they're kind of gently trying to say, well, there be a few side effects, but here's all the benefits today. When reality is it's false research. I'm going to do an episode here pretty soon, uh, released on how less than 50% of medical studies today are true. So when we're seeing somebody throw out a number on a medical study today, over— it's like only like 52% of the time it's not true, it's false. And it's because you think about a pharmaceutical company, there's going to be very biased research. Like they, like, they're gonna sell billions of more dollars if this study works out for them, so they're going to hire the exact people they want. They're going to set up the study in a certain light. And think about the same thing with, with these media companies where the back end for their sites are drugs and porn and other things. And so most people— some people might even say, well, that's a conspiracy theory. And it's like, what are you talking about? That's just common sense. Yeah. And so it's, it's important. One of the— one of the— go ahead, Annie.

Oh, I was just gonna say, there's even studies where the— you know, you'll read the abstract of the study and it tells you what their findings were, what their conclusions were, and then you actually look at the data and how they, they analyzed it. Even the data in the study shows that their, their findings or their conclusions were basically false. Yeah. But people get away with this stuff all the time cuz yeah, I mean, like I said, I worked in a research lab, it's still run by people and it's very much a funding thing. So there's, there's a lot of dynamics at play. I'm, I'm gonna listen to that episode. I'm, I'm really curious to see what you find about kind of the false research stuff. Stuff.

Yeah, yeah, there's really 6 main elements you'll be able to see and detect whether something's true or not, or to find levels of credibility. So it's going to be, uh, it's going to be an interesting one. Um, last couple questions I have for you. You've interviewed a lot of people on your show. Um, what is— and by the way, it could be someone on your show, it could be just someone in life who's helped you, maybe it's a mentor— what is the best piece of advice that you've ever received? Oh man.

Okay, best piece of advice, um, there's 4 magnifiers in life: marriage, time, authority, and money. And you inevitably will be exposed to one of these amplifiers at some point in your life, so you better make sure that what gets amplified is good. And I got this advice early in my 20s. This was from a spiritual mentor And the point he was making is you have the rest of your life to make money. One day you'll probably get married. Um, you know, you're— if you have leadership on your life, or even if you just grow vocationally, you're going to get more authority in your life. Or, you know, if you start a home, you have some authority in your, in your home. Um, focus on your character. Focus on your character above all else, because if that is not established, those magnifiers, they will not build you up, they will break you down. And— I mean, we don't need to look too far to see stories like that happening all the time.

Yeah.

So that was, that was a really helpful thing. It, it was just a cool way of kind of emphasizing character above all else. And a, a secondary piece of advice to that was he, he advised me that you marry character, you know, like the book of Proverbs talks about how beauty is fleeting, right? But, but it's character that stands the test of time. And my wife is beautiful inside and out. We have a great relationship. You know, we lead worship together and we, we get to do all kinds of fun things together. We're starting a family now, but above all else, like, we're, we're connected through our character, um, you know, and there's a, there's a great, a great foundation that comes when that's the emphasis in your life.

Wow, that's so good. Last question: what is your best piece of advice for somebody? And, and I want to frame it like this, you know, you said earlier in relation to functional medicine, which is true, and I believe you do the very same thing in your counseling, getting to the root of the issue. We tend to have, you know, I did a recent episode too on the 5 whys of going, well, why, why, why, you know, continuing to go. If you're going to pull pornography out by the roots, yeah, what's your best piece of advice of how to do that?

Build self-awareness. Yeah, the adage is if you are not aware, it cannot be repaired. And there's, if you're struggling with pornography or some compulsive sexual behavior, there are things going on within your heart, on an emotional life, uh, thought life, uh, your belief systems. There's things going on there that are driving the behavior. And until you gain an awareness of those dynamics, you can't do anything about it. And when you don't have that awareness, a lot of people will settle for internet filters and bouncing the eyes and trying to white-knuckle it. But, um, if you really want a holistic solution, if you really want to get to the roots of the issue, to do, it's got to start with that awareness piece. Build self-awareness, and the more time you spend articulating what the problems are there, the easier the solutions become.

That's so good. That's great advice. I want to encourage everybody to, uh, check out Cynthia's podcast. It's called Unleash the Man Within. And again, this is something— and we, we— I'm gonna have you on again in the future, and we're gonna actually do a different topic. I want to get into masculinity and femininity and really just, uh, what it takes to be a man today. But again, I want to encourage you to check out his podcast. Also, he has an amazing program. Listen, there— as we, we share the statistics, so many people have an addiction, and he's got a program called Deep Clean. And I want to encourage you to go and check out the program. And Cynthia, let people know maybe the website or, or where specifically people could find you.

Yeah, the podcast is called Unleash the Man Within, and we, we do 4 episodes a week. We have fantastic guests yourself, Dr. Axe, on it. Um, and then, uh, the site is deepcleancoaching.com if people want to find out more about the program.

Again, Deep Clean Coaching, guys. I want to encourage you to check it out. And I want to say, hey, thanks everybody for tuning in. I hope that this information has been impactful for you, and it might be impactful for you personally, or maybe it's for a child or a friend or somebody where you can be the hero and guide for them in helping them transform their life. And remember, each and every week we're where we're diving deep into topics like this on how to grow in body, mind, spirit, and take your health and your life to the next level. Hey, don't forget to subscribe, like, and share this episode. The world needs to know. I'll see you on the next episode.