How to Achieve the American Dream | Ken Coleman

This NBA Playoffs with FanDuel, you're not just watching the playoffs, you're a part of them. Steve's got the phone, opens FanDuel, and he's going for threes. Be a part of the action on FanDuel. All customers get a Profit Boost every NBA Playoff game day.

21+ and present in select states.

Opt-in required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable Profit Boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration and max wager amount. See full terms at fanduel.com/sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET.

What work do I really enjoy doing? A task, a role. Do I love leading people? Do I love instructing people? Do I love analyzing things? Do I love researching? I could go on and on and on. What do I love to do? And then what results are tied to that I love are tied to this, this thing that I, that I love to do. So I'm doing, but I'm also creating. So if I'm doing this that I love, how do I want that to create something? And so there's, there's another 3-part question I would give people. If you're looking for ideas, who are the people you want to help? You gotta answer these questions. Second question is, what is the problem or desire, the problem or desire that these people have? And the third question is, what are the solutions or what is the solution to that problem or desire?

Hey everybody, I'm Dr. Josh Axe. Welcome to another episode of the Growth Lab Podcast, where each and every week we talk about the science behind how to grow yourself, your health, your wealth, and take your career and relationships to the next level. Today we have Ken Coleman. Ken is a friend of mine and he is an expert in personal growth, professional growth, and how to optimize your life and your business. We're gonna talk about a lot of stuff today. We're gonna talk about probably some, he loves to get controversial. So the first thing he said when he came on here was, what's controversial? Can I talk about it?

Give it to me.

The first thing I wanna talk about is your shoes though.

Yeah, I know. They're awesome. Thank you. They were a gift. I mean, you know, what do you do when somebody gives you a really nice gift? Uh, and I got some really nice shoes at a conference and so I'm wearing them. They're a little ostentatious. I don't want to say the brand cause I feel like people will turn me off immediately. Don't you think?

You want me to tell people the brand? Yeah. I think they're Gucci, right?

They're Guccis.

They were a gift.

They were a gift. What are you going to do? I got to wear them.

I'd never pay for them. Yeah.

I like nice shoes, but these are a little overpriced. Can I tell you that?

Yeah.

I looked at the price. So they were a gift. So then I looked them up. It's ridiculous.

Yeah.

At some point we Americans gotta go, are we getting gouged?

Yeah.

For status.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying?

That's right.

It's pretty interesting. I mean, I'm all for fine quality items, but I'd like to know how these are made because unless these are made like with Egyptian silk or some like crazy unbelievable, they're not worth this.

Yeah.

But nonetheless, I have them on.

Yeah. Yeah. Growing up, my mom would get so frustrated because I would only wear stuff from a thrift store.

Yeah.

You know, so that was my entire life. Yeah.

I got pants that I'd wear for 3 years because they couldn't afford to buy me pants every year. So my jeans had cuffs on 'em this big. That's not the hipster cuff. That's the, we can't afford to get you a pair of jeans every year, so you're gonna wear these until you actually grow out of 'em. Yeah. And by the way, if we tore a hole in 'em, we got patches on the knees. This is the lower middle class world that I knew.

Yeah, I love it. That's so cool. So, you know what I want to talk about a lot today. Yeah. I want to talk about, again, and by the way, I just want to let everybody know, I mean, Ken is somebody who has spoken into my life, added so much value to me for my business, for just personal growth, a lot of wisdom. And, and you've got a show super, you know, super popular on the Ramsey Network. And, um, and so we'll talk about that a little bit later, but, um, let's start off and talk about, you know, when you look at, Um, you were quoting a study earlier. Can, can you get into that in terms of— sure. So this is, this is health we're starting talking about in terms of how important your career is to your health.

Yeah. Let's talk about your work. Okay. So a couple of pieces of data. The average American, Josh, spends 90,000 hours at work over their lifetime. So that's a mind-boggling number. So let's just sit that right there. And then let's look at, okay, how many years you're going to spend at work, how long you have to work, when you will you be able to retire.

Sure.

I just want everybody to kind of get there for a second, you start looking at work the way most people look at work, is I've got to do it, it's about compensation. All right, and then let's look at this study from Indiana Wesleyan University. They found that people who are unhappy at work, okay, die on average 10 years earlier than people who are happy and fulfilled.

Wow.

Now you would understand that study on the surface more than I would because you understand the body far better than I do. When you start looking at that, we look at what stress does.

Mm-hmm.

What does stress release in our body? You know, how does it affect our sleep, our eating? You know, all of that.

Yeah.

And if you're not exercising and you're stressed and burned out and you don't have a healthy relationship life and you are stuck for 8 hours a day, let's use this for example, 5 days a week, 40 years of your life. And most of that massive amount of time you are unfulfilled. And I'm using that word unfulfilled to replace happy because that's really— happiness is an emotion. It's a state. It's an emotional state. But really what we're talking about there is truly joy through fulfillment.

Yeah.

And so it spits off a positive emotion. I have bad days.

You have bad days. Yeah.

I have long days. You have long days. But I can tell you this, on my bad days and my long days, I'm still doing something that I'm good at, something that I enjoy. Yeah. And I'm producing results even on the long days and the bad days that matter very much to me.

Yeah.

That is fulfillment. That's what I teach. That's purpose at work, to use what I do best, to do what I love, to produce results that matter to me. And I want you to listen to that. Use what I do best to do what I love, to produce results that matter to me. That's purpose. You were created to contribute. So when you look at that study, you have to start looking at why are so many people sick? I'm going to suggest in front of you and let you swat me down, but I've gone on record with this and I believe the data is there to back me up. I believe America is as sick as it is and we are sick as we are around the world in large part to the stress and the lack of meaning that we experience in work.

Well, you know, this is a, this is a big deal, you know. I mean, you, you mentioned the amount of hours that people spend working. I mean, that's a, it's a huge portion of your life. And so if you don't like what you do, yeah, that much of the day, I mean, yeah, hormones are gonna be released, stress hormones like cortisol. And if cortisol gets too high, then actually the way the hormones work, it starts affecting other hormones like, uh, insulin. So now your blood sugar is actually higher than it should be. So then you have inflammation throughout your entire body. So you, age faster. So what you're saying makes complete sense. One of the big questions I would have, and I've heard you speak on this before, how does somebody find, yeah, their dream job and their purpose?

Yeah, I love the question. Well, so I just kind of revealed the, the formula. You have to figure out, first of all, where you're talented. So let's just think of talent right now as balls of clay. Let's say that Josh has 3 main talents, just for simple example. Let's say they were on this table right here, 3 balls of clay, and they're inanimate right now. And with education or learning. So I don't, don't think just traditional education, but traditional education plus, plus just good old-fashioned learning and then experience. So education and experience applied to that clay. Now all of a sudden it gets shaped in something much like the potter does. If you've never been to a pottery, I gotta tell you, not just because I'm using it as a metaphor, just go take a pottery class with your kids. Guys, if you have a girl, I'm a girl dad.

Yeah.

It's one of the greatest dates of your life. Take your daughter to a pottery class, but also I want you to watch how the potter— and go, go on YouTube and watch how the potter takes that clay and puts it on a wheel and with water and the pressure of his hand, plus the centrifugal force of the wheel begins to apply pressure to it. And so when we take education and experience, learning, doing, and we apply it to our talents, we shape talents into skills. Now we're We're talking about super tools, power tools, right? If I want to cut a log right now, the old school way, the early tools was a handsaw.

Lot of effort.

Yeah. Okay. Now we have chainsaws. Zoom. Done. 3 seconds versus 3 minutes. That's what talent is. It's where you go to the world of work and you're super efficient and you're exhibiting excellence. So talent, what you do best. The second element is passion, and I use the word passion because it speaks of love. But if you look at the root word of passion, it's pati, which means to suffer. And if you think about that, true love, passion, you will suffer for a person. As a father, you and I, yeah, we will suffer. We'll suffer the greatest loss in order to save our wives, our children. Uh, if you think about the great inventors, they suffered, you know, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, read their stories. So many losses, suffering. Michael Jordan, you know, he talks about the amount of time he spent in the gym.

Yeah.

To be the greatest closer ever. But he said, you know, I'm known for being the guy that makes the clutch shot, but what people don't talk about is how many times I missed the shot. It was way more. Suffering. I could go on and on.

What—

where do we suffer in life? Well, we suffer failure, we suffer patience, we suffer rejection. Yeah, this is all professional application and personal now. So passion is, this is the work that I love. In other words, I get up and I get excited about speaking, I get excited about prepping for my show, I get excited about doing an interview, I get excited about being interviewed. Yeah, that's passion. That kind of performance work I look forward to. I lose track of time when I'm in it. Third element, third ball of clay in this example is Mission. If you think about our military brothers and sisters, they always have a very clearly defined mission. What's the mission? You ask a military person what one of their missions are, they're going to tell you very specifically what it was.

Yeah.

There's one clear thing. And then it had goals tied to this outcome. So I use the word mission to say results that matter deeply to me. All work creates results. When we are in alignment with all three, talent, I use what I do best. To do work that I love, that produces results that I care about, you are on purpose. In other words, the tuning fork is going off inside your chest. People say things to you like, you were born for this, Josh. You're a natural. See, we're hardwired already. Those are your 3 wires: talent, passion, and mission. Notice that talent's technical, Josh.

It's a tool.

Yeah. The other 2 are all heart-based. I love the work. I love the result. And so the reason I, I've come up with those 3 ways of describing is I've talked to 7,000 people on the air. I've coached them, and you learn pretty quickly what people, you know, desire. And I looked at motivation. I did all this research on motivation, intrinsic motivation, as I do it because I want to. That's the missional result. By the way, I just want to mention we created an assessment called the Get Clear Assessment, 20 minutes, and it measures all 3 of those. It's very important because StrengthFinders was just strengths in the talent area. But that still leaves you with a whole lot of stuff you're not aware of.

Yeah.

You need to be aware of what you love to do and what results move your heart. Mm-hmm. And so when you figure that out, now we've got a job description. I'm good at this, I love doing this, and I care about these results. And now we're able to see the world of work as contribution.

Yeah.

Where's my spot? And here's what I teach. There are multiple areas in the area, in work where you could be very fulfilled. You know, if I wasn't doing what I'm doing now, there's 3 or 4 other areas that I could be in and absolutely be just as on fire as I I am now. Why? Because I'm using what I do best to do what I love to produce results that matter to me. And it's great freedom when you can realize, wait a second, this is what I'm supposed to do with my life. And that awareness gives us tremendous confidence. Yeah. And, and so anyway, that's, that's how you figure out the job or the career path.

Yeah.

Those are secondary. That figuring out the career path and the job takes care of itself if I know who I am, why I am that way, what I want to do, and where I can do it. You see what I'm saying? And so then it becomes, oh sure, I'm very process, detail, or organizational type person. Yeah, I, I just— I'm good at it, I enjoy it, I care about efficiency. So I'm not going to be looking for a designer job, I'm looking for something in the process world. Would it be a project manager? Would it be an office manager? Would it be an accountant? You know, you see what I'm saying? And so when you have that going for you, the ideation takes care of itself. So in other words, the more I know myself, the easier it is for me to see all the things I can do. So I teach and preach awareness of self, because once we're aware of who we are, uh, the ideas take care of themselves. Your heart just starts going, yeah, shooting ideas up.

Well, yeah, this is an important discussion because a big part of what you're talking about, who I— it's identity, right? 100%. And so, and I, I think we've got a generation today, today when we've talked, you know, I've talked about this on the show pretty frequently. I bring up identity all the time, is that people are confused about who they are. Absolutely. In a lot of different ways, right? It can be career, but it could also be, you know, gender. It could be, uh, it could be all kinds of things. Like, people are confused today. And so I think being able to figure out who I am, but part of what you said here is Part of me figuring out who I am is also in building a stronger identity is knowing I'm contributing. It sort of leads to this level of I'm worthy, I'm valuable if I can add value to others. What's interesting though, like you look at culture today, there's this sort of traditional identity, which is part of what I'm created to do is serve a community. But the modern identity is very much, well, everybody's here to serve me. Yes. And so what happens is how does contribution work then, right? If everybody's there to serve me, it ends up not being very fulfilling.

It's absolutely right. But what's funny is, is even though that, that is, that is exploding in our culture, there's a, there's a movement towards universal income and, and socialism among our younger generation because they just don't understand it. But that's all me-focused.

Yes.

But what happens is, is when you actually do your homework and you read studies of millionaires who've walked away at 40, 45, uh, and they return to work 4 or 5 years later, to a person they say things like I, I just lacked a sense of meaning. I, yeah, I, I see we were made to work.

That's right.

Yeah, let's go beyond. I mean, listen, I'm an equal opportunity offender because my job is to provoke people. That's what I, I want to make you think, uh, not upset you, but if you get upset, that's okay. But Genesis chapter 2, if you're, if you're not a person of faith and you just want to kick it around, kick it around. Genesis 3. If you are a person of faith, you need to dive into it because it is there that we are introduced to work.

This is before the fall, is before Genesis 3. This is in the Garden of Eden, right?

Yeah, it's like God created Adam to work the garden. Yeah, it's kind of funny. Yeah, you know, I'm a little— I'm a little different. I like to look at things from a different angle and I go, yeah, I'm thinking God's going, this is a beautiful garden and I kind of want to see somebody work it. Yeah. And so we're created to work. This is why, whether you're an atheist or super religious, we all lay awake at night at some point in our life and wonder, why am I here?

Yeah.

Or in other words, what should I do with my life? You don't have to teach a person to wonder that. You don't have to teach a toddler to say no either. So I'm gonna assert that it's instinctive, and if it's instinctive, it's put inside of us. I'm not trying to turn this into a creation versus evolution debate. I'm simply saying, no matter where you are on this spectrum of what you believe about how we got here, I think you're lying to yourself if you don't think, you know what, I do come alive when I, when I get a compliment from somebody that says I did something well. Yeah, I come alive when I see the impact I make on somebody, even if it's just a girlfriend, you know, that I, that I had coffee with and she's going through a tough time and you think, I'm just a single mom. And I'm at home with 3 Rugrats and I don't work anymore and nobody notices me. But you go have coffee with a friend and encourage them and she walks out with her shoulders back and her head up. Come on, ladies, you feel special. Yeah, guys, you know, when you're out there, maybe you're just coaching a kids' sports team for your kids and you speak into the life of some other kid and you see that kid perk up, you feel good inside. This is, this is not debatable that we humans actually long to make our mark in the world. Yeah. So based on that, That's where I jump into the conversation and go, then what's your mark? Because I don't believe you can be truly successful if you aren't making this significant contribution that you were created to make. One final point on this, I'll throw it back at you. Here's what's wrong with culture. We've been told that success is about power, mm-hmm, fame— now with the Kardashian craze that led to all the social media crap— and money. Power fame and fortune. This is what we've all been taught, whether it was overtly or it's just kind of by osmosis. That's not success. I would posit that there's a little lady who wasn't powerful. She only became famous years later when people discovered who she really was and what she did, and she certainly didn't have any money, and that's Mother Teresa.

A little nun, right?

In Calcutta, India, at that time considered the worst place on the planet. Pretty successful because she met the opportunity to fulfill the unique role that God put her on this planet to fill, and she did it, and she did it well. And as a result, became famous, but only because of her humility and only because of her service. And we admire her. And gosh, you know, that's— that speaks to me. That's the ultimate argument. Take all of your figure out your most famous person right now and throw them at me, I go, I'll take that person, that person, that person, that person, and I'll raise you Mother Teresa. Yeah.

Yeah. It's so good. You know, I, I, um, I think there's this idea just to give you another example of this. So I had a, my grandfather lived to be 96 years old, and when he was 44 years old, he used to work at this company called Ohio Bell, and he, he was part of the phone company, served in World War II. Yeah. Got done, worked that. And then, and then one day he decided, I want to do something else with my life. And so, him and my grandmother went, they took their life savings, they bought this small pond, a lake, and a campground. And they ended up creating a swim park and a campground from this land. And he worked this for 52 years. Wow. And I mean, he worked every day up until he died. And he had such an immense sense of purpose. He would go back in this campground and he didn't make a lot of money. No. But he was so fulfilled, so happy. Everybody loved him. When we were at his funeral, you know, everybody was standing up saying, my grandfather's name were Howard. They said, Howard saved our marriage. Howard prayed for us when we had no hope. Howard gave us money when we didn't have any. I mean, this, these people. So he would go back in this campground and just, he was a sort of, I mean, if you can imagine this, oh, you know, weathered old man, he'd put his hand on your shoulder and just say, how can I help you? How can I pray for you? How can I serve you today? And he did this with all of these people. Constantly. And I just look at that, you know, and again, what you're saying there, you know, that's success, right? Mother Teresa, that sort of idea. And also thinking about it like this, like one question I think might be good for people is thinking about what is your Calcutta or what is your campground or what is— where is that area or who is that person you can have an impact on and use the word contribution. This is big. I know for myself, you know, I still, when I am in Nashville, I still have patients. I only practice— I practice functional medicine for 5 years, had a physical location, and I still run into patients constantly and they're like, Dr. Axe, good to see you. You know, give them a hug. And, and I had one not too many years ago who said, hey, I've lost over 100 pounds now. And it's just, you know, being able to hear that from people, for me, just fills me with joy knowing I've contributed in some way. So part of what you're saying, this is just so important, is You need to find a way to contribute and you're gonna find joy in a sense of purpose by adding value to others.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, this is a, it's a very good point because we, if we understand that when we make that unique contribution, what we get out of it is this unbelievable, unequaled feeling of significance.

Yeah.

And here's what's interesting. I don't care how many, how famous or powerful you are, once you die, you'll be in the news for a couple days and then we all move on.

Yeah.

So I tell you what started freaking me out one time is I, I was sitting at a conference and, and, uh, um, and a friend of mine was speaking, an older friend in our space, and he challenged all of us in the room. And he was talking about, he showed these old black and white photos that he found at a garage sale, you know, like from the late 1880s or something, you know, that nobody smiled back then.

Yeah. Yeah.

And he was like, this picture was at a yard sale and I bought it cuz I thought it looked cool. And then I realized, who are these people? And he said, I walked to the people there. You know that? He goes, no, we just, I think we got it as a cool photo. Like nobody knows who those people are. Not around here. The only people that know those people in a picture are the people that were in their line and maybe their family. That's pretty powerful. Like we start thinking about what really, really matters.

Well, you know, and I think this can lead people down two roads. Yeah. I think there are some people who would maybe embrace nihilism in the form of Well, your, your life doesn't matter. People aren't gonna remember you one year from now or a hundred. And by the way, there's a lot of people in culture right now who are going down that path of like, I get it. It just, my life doesn't matter. But the way that I think about it is, uh, less about the picture. It's like the picture really doesn't matter. But what does matter is knowing that when I teach my, my 3-year-old daughter, you know, and I'm giving her hugs and I'm giving her love and I'm teaching her a life lesson that she's gonna teach her kids that, they're going to teach their kids, they're going to teach their kids. That's it. It's that.

So that's what I'm getting to. It's about the contribution you make first and foremost with your family, second with your friends, and then customers.

That—

it's the contribution. I remember watching this documentary. If you haven't seen it, it's a two-part documentary on Garth Brooks on Netflix.

It's fascinating. I haven't seen it. I love Garth Brooks.

Okay, so do I. I love Garth. I saw his solo show in Vegas. Best show I've ever seen in my life. So anyway, I love Garth, and I love Garth because I love his heart. And this Netflix documentary just puts his heart on display. Spoiler alert, okay, for anybody listening, you can pause it if you really want to see it, but this is a powerful moment. He's talking about, um, how much it means to him to make music and then perform music. And he's trying to explain— this is the biggest star in the world— and he's like, it's just so special to me And he said, I'll give you an example of, of how unbelievable it is to go out and to entertain a crowd and how much it means to him in here. And so he's telling a story about how he's at a concert and he was on intermission and he was about ready to pop back up on the stage, you know, from the back. And as he's about to go up, uh, a young lady, probably early 20s, she's a security guard, you know, with the yellow jacket. And, and he says hi to her, kind of one-on-one, just sees her really quick and smiles at her and says hello. And she goes, What's it like? And he stopped and he said, I'm sorry. And she goes, what's it like? And he goes, I don't know, you mean up there? He goes, oh, it's amazing. She goes, wow, I'd love to know what that feels like. He goes, come on. And he grabs her by the hand and he starts crying as he's telling the story. Like, I got goosebumps right now and I'm not doing a great job. But he pulls her up on the stage and introduces the crowd and tells the crowd, just give her some love. And she just, you know, overcome with emotion and just, he hugged her and she said, thank you. And, and what what he was doing for her in that moment was making her feel special with the, with the adoration. But, but he was passing that on to her. And what the reason he told the story is like, there's a special feeling when I contribute a song and everybody's singing it and that song makes them feel good. That's his art. That's his way of touching and making a difference, you know, touching people, make a difference in their life. Same thing with what you've done with changing people's health, you know. Uh, I get these unbelievable stories. Ken, you helped me figure out my future and you blah blah blah, you know. It's like, I didn't do anything. You did it. I I got to be a little bit of a part of it. And see, for me, it's that— it's not the best-selling author status, it's not being on national TV, it's not— it's not taking a picture with somebody, it's not signing books. The thing that's most rewarding for me is when I read those testimonies in private.

There's something—

and I— this feeling comes over me of, oh man, that's cool.

I, I get to be—

I get to be a part of that. Like, that's what I mean by success is not power. It is not fame. It is not fortune. It is significance. It is you realizing how significant you are. You're already significant. But when you realize it and we realize that two ways through the expression of love and care from our family and friends.

Yeah.

And then the moment where somebody gets touched, somebody gets their life better, somebody's light bulb comes on. Yeah. Somebody gets healthy. Somebody looks prettier when they walk out of your chair because you just did their hair. That's the other time that we feel true significance.

That's good. That's good. What is your advice for people who maybe they're, maybe they're at that in-between place or that low place where they're like, listen, I'm in a job. Mm-hmm. I don't totally know what I love, but I'm, I'm kind of, and maybe I'm just getting started. It could be somebody who's 23 years old and they're working in a, I was gonna say a record store, but they don't have those anymore.

I know, sadly. Well, they actually do in Nashville. Cool parts of every city still have the old school records.

So that example holds.

Okay. I like it.

Let's say they're there and they're like, okay, I don't, I don't know exactly what I want to do, but I'm in this place. I'm in this job that maybe I don't like or love. What is your advice to those people?

Okay. The first thing is I want you to run to something, not run away from something. So let's just hold. Okay. Unless the only caveat to this advice is if you're financially secure, and you're not having to eat into emergency savings, stay. Let's, let's not jump. Let's stay stable. We need stability while we're thinking of something as serious as a pivot. We know this from research that when we lose a job, it has the same traumatic effect on our bodies as losing a loved one. That's, that's so—

it's significant.

You know, it's, it's very significant. So, so whether we leave on our own but we don't have something to leave to or we get fired, it can be pretty traumatic. So I want you to first go, okay, I know that my time here is probably coming to an end soon, but relax. Let's stay stable. You know what I mean?

It's like, breathe.

Let's, okay, let's put our energy into not jumping off a cliff and hoping that I land okay. Let's put our energy into where am I going to run to? So that's the first piece of advice. And then the second piece of advice is, Clarity is your superpower. It's just, you know, when you're driving in a car and you come up on fog or heavy rain to the point you can't see past the hood of your car, you are immediately slowing down, stopping, pulling over. It's terrifying. If you ever walked in a cave where you can't see your hand in front of your face, it's terrifying. So when we are uncertain, that's when our fear is the greatest. I think the fear of the unknown is the greatest fear we can experience. So the antidote to that is Clarity. So I need to get clear. So, you know, if you're in that situation, you know, you're reading my stuff, you're reading somebody else's stuff to where you can go, what am I really good at? Yeah, let's do some life mapping, if you will. Let's look at what I've been complimented on my whole life, what's always come easy to me. I saw other people, you know, that's the idea, whether you're using my stuff or not.

Yeah.

All right, so I'll avoid the, the product pitches, but you do want to get clear on what you're good at.

Yeah.

And you need to get clear at what lights you up. And those are those two other areas. What work do I I really enjoy doing? A task, a role. Do I love leading people? Do I love instructing people? Do I love analyzing things? Do I love researching? I could go on and on and on. What do I love to do? And then what results, uh, are tied to that I love are tied to this, this thing that I, that I love to do. So I'm doing, but I'm also creating. So if I'm doing this that I love, how do I want that to create something? And so there's, there's another 3-part question I would give people. If you're looking for ideas, who are the people you want to help? You got to answer these questions. Second question is, what is the problem or desire, the problem or desire that these people have? And the third question is, what are the solutions or what is the solution to that problem or desire? That's when the ideas start to flow. And I promise this works for your audience because I've done this on the air with people that are under pressure. You know, they're like, Ken, I have no idea what I want to do. And I always know that they do. So I pressed them. So hard early on in my radio show days, but now I figured out just ask, ask those 3 questions. Who are the people you want to help? They begin to think of them. Then they're able to answer that second question. It's all the same question. I just come at it 3 ways.

Yeah.

Right. It's a little psychology mumbo ninja move. Who are the people you want to help? What's the problem or desire they have? What's the solution to that problem or desire? Boom. There's where your ideas come from. And let's say you spit out 7 ideas, 5 ideas, and then you start looking at those ideas. And then you can go back to this methodology. Do I have the talent?

Yeah.

To be able to do this?

Yeah.

Do I really love the work that would be associated with solving this problem or meeting this desire? When I look at these results, like, are this going to be able to— these ideas going to be able to produce these results? Because you want to be in a situation where you're spending the majority of your day, let's call it 75% of your day, in that sweet spot that I've been talking about, where I'm most of my day, I'm in my talent zone. Most of my day I'm doing something I really enjoy and most of my day that those two activities are producing results that I care about. You know, people know at Ramsey, don't call me to a meeting to talk about administrative stuff. Yeah, I don't care. It's not my— I know things. I get things done up here. You know, I go to a studio, I get things done. You know, I write, I get things done. I don't want to be in that meeting because I don't care. There's somebody in this building that's really good at that, that cares about that. So have them focus on what are the administrative things. Tell me what I need. To do. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Yeah, of course.

And that's— I've just learned that over time because I want to stay in a place of high energy.

Yeah, it tends to work like if when I'm doing something that I'm good at, it's energizing. I don't get tired doing it. But if you're doing something you're not really wired to do, oh man, it is just draining. It leeches from your body, your energy, your motivation.

Yeah. And by the way, let's not forget those two things are true, but You probably aren't very good at them. Think about that. There's a high correlation between things we're good at and things we enjoy and things that we're bad at and things that we—

that's right. Hate to do. Yeah.

The only thing I do that I am not very good at is golf, but that's a totally different animal.

Yeah.

There's the outside, there's the camaraderie.

Yeah.

You know, the, the back nine cigar, you know, these are the things that, but let's be honest, that's a hobby. Yeah, so it's a different deal. But if you think about it, uh, yeah, the things that I suck at, I genuine— I generally don't like to do.

Yeah, you probably wear those shoes on the golf course. They're too— what, you get them stained? You don't want to wear them to these meetings like this carpeted rooms.

And, and I'll tell you a little, uh, neurotic thing that I do. I have a little sole cleaner that when I go home, we take these babies off, you wipe those white soles down if you want to keep your shoes.

I love it.

You see, there's the bonus content nobody came for.

I could see, uh, I mean, I bet Dave has a couple pairs of those. He'd probably wear, you know, I can see Ramsey wearing—

let me tell you something, let me tell you something about Dave Ramsey, a little behind the scenes here, okay? This is extra bonus content. That dude is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, okay? Uh, and that guy probably owns 6 shirts and he'll wear the same pair of shoes for 6 months until they start squeaking, and then he buys another pair. The guy's the real deal, man. Could not care less about anything clothing-wise. It's fantastic.

I mean, that's one of the things I love. He doesn't, he doesn't care about those—

does not care at all. You know this is true, you know.

Oh yeah, he—

you just watch the show. He was 5 shirts, 6 shirts, 7 maybe. It's fantastic.

I've heard when people get to be the age of like 80, you know, they stop caring, but he stopped at 30. It was just like, no, no, no, no, you're being generous.

Dave never cared, and his wife Sharon would be laughing right next to me right now. She actually suggested one time that I take him shopping, and he gave me a look of death because I was like, sure. And he returned that with a death stare. So that, that idea has never taken hold.

You know, one of the things I love about Dave is when I think about him— actually, I was sitting down with Jordan Rubin recently, we were talking a little bit, and Dave was in the news. And, um, and, and it was one of those news articles where he was— they were trying to bash him for something. And Jordan and I were like, We respect Dave so much for standing his ground and being so principled. Like, you guys are one of the first companies to go back after the mandates of COVID You were one of the first. You guys got a lot of flack for it. But again, I—

yours truly never missed a day.

Wow.

Because, uh, we have of, of, of the— we have multiple, uh, Ramsey personalities that have different shows, but I and Dave were the only one that had daily shows. So when COVID hit, Dave without knowing anything. He did send everybody home because nobody knew what was going on.

Yeah.

But he said skeleton staff and Coleman's going to do his show every day and I'm doing my show every day. And so we did our show live from our studios every day. We never missed a day. I'm very proud of that.

I love that. Yeah. What's the biggest thing you've learned from, you know, from Dave?

Nobody's ever asked me that. I would, I would say that it is the value of serving people. That's what people don't realize about him because he's got this gruff kind of angry grandpa personality that's made him a legend.

Yeah.

With his advice and how he would, you know. Yeah. Um, but when we have guests, guest speakers in, when we have, uh, clients, when we have just guests in the lobby that come watch our shows every day live, his level of service is— it's, it's fanatic. Like, he is a fan of our fans. Yeah, he, he is maniacal uh, about his friends, like guest speakers that'll come in, the way we treat them, and they all just rave about how we treat them. He cares in serving people. Uh, he would see something on Twitter or social media, on Facebook, if he happened to see it, and someone said, my book came and the, the COVID was— the, the dust jacket was crumpled, he would reply to that and say, that's being taken care of right now, and he would have already sent an email. Like, he really cares about serving people, and that leads to that, that rather that comes from when he and Sharon lost everything and he started crawling back up and started selling that very first book out of the trunk of his car. It was doing overhead projector presentations at his church, trying to help people never go into debt, uh, or get out of it. Um, he has a deep, deep, deep desire to serve people and to help them never experience the pain that he experienced or to get out of it.

You know, I think that's something that we see in great leaders, right? It's this idea of, I have this group of people I want to serve, and I will do everything I can, sacrifice almost everything, in order to serve this group.

Well, you know, I'm glad you said this because, you know, there are a lot of great— great being in quotes— the world says they're great, and you get to know them or you read about them a little bit and you go, no. Prolific, yes. Great, no.

Yeah.

Um, truly great leaders are servant leaders. They have a real heart for people. They just treat people different.

It doesn't mean they're perfect.

It doesn't mean they haven't messed up, but they really care for people. Uh, leaders are servants because they, they ultimately— leaders are the people who say, hey, um, I need to go here and I need some people to go with me. And then they convince those people to go with them. And then they go, I need to care for those people cuz I need them to help me go here to solve this problem. That's that the great leaders are visionaries.

Yeah.

And so by nature you have to have that spirit of, I gotta care for people who are willing to step into this vision with me.

Yeah.

And the real great leaders are servants because they, they appreciate it. They don't look at, you know, I hear about these leaders that treat people like pawns and you know, they're just nasty. Oh yeah. Those aren't—

there's a lot of bosses like that today. You know, you think about the number of bosses who are— their thing is, well, my team is here, everybody, everybody's here to serve me. Yeah, right. And this creates this sort of toxic work environment. I read a study recently and it said— and actually I did, uh, I went to, um, actually went back to— I didn't tell you this— went to Johns Hopkins, got a, got a degree there recently, and I took a course in leadership. No way. The whole— yeah, I went and, um, and I, I did a, a capstone project on culture. And I went through all of these studies and what they found was the, the, there's one quality that was the most toxic, created the most toxic work environments. And that was when you had team and you didn't honor and respect them. So that was literally the number one thing. If you wanna create a great company culture. Yeah. If you honor and respect your team, that was actually, yeah. I was like, wow, that's really, you know, the number one thing for workplace culture.

Yeah. Well, why do you think we had the great resignation in 2000?

Quiet quitting.

Quiet quitting. Those are all there. So the great resignation was, the pandemic hit and it forced this massive change on all of us because we— most people don't like change. I'm a little bit of a freak, so I like change. The newness and the excitement is kind of like, we— yeah, most people don't like change. Well, when COVID hit, everything changed. Everything about our lives changed. We were also watching news and we were seeing a death toll.

Oh my gosh. So it made us— the fear mongering—

the fear thing, but it made everybody reflect.

Yes.

So coming out of that, people are like, I'm not working for this jerk, I'm gonna go work I'm going to go get my money. And so the great resignation took place. This is from 2021 to let's call it fourth quarter 2022. And it was 4+ million people a month were changing jobs.

Wow.

That's the— all those are historic numbers. Now quiet quitting has become— it became a TikTok, Instagram darling, this idea. And it was glorifying. I'm going to do the bare minimum. Where is that coming from? You don't care about me. I don't care about you. Wow. Screw you. Here's the middle finger in the form of I'm going to do the bare minimum. And let's be honest, quiet quitting is really about a revolution of I'll stick average in your face. What are you going to do about it?

Yeah.

And people are then they think they're sticking it to the man, but what they're really doing is accepting average.

Well, and they're hurting themselves. Hurting themselves. 100%.

It's back to the very part of the very first part of our conversation. So, so we're glorifying these things. And you know what? I don't mean— I don't, I don't want to take us into a rabbit hole here, but I'm going to tell you where this is leading. So you have quiet quitting is wildly popular. You've got socialism is growing in popularity amongst the younger generation. They don't understand what it is.

Yeah.

More on that in just a second. And then we've got this financially independent retire early movement, the FIRE movement, which is you work like an absolute dog until you're like 38 40, don't spend, don't do anything, don't enjoy life with the hopes that you're going to spend the rest of your life on a beach with a margarita. We know that's not going to work out that way. So where we are in America as it relates to work is we are in a dangerous and precarious situation with the tension between leadership and bosses and, and the employee worker that we've got to be very careful because there are multiple cities in the United States that are testing universal income right now. And we saw a taste of it during COVID where people were staying out of work.

You're right.

Wow. We started giving away extension of unemployment benefits. And so amazingly, the data shows us that when they took those away, the participation in the workforce spiked back up. So we've got to be very, very careful right now. And for anybody younger going, well, I like the tenets of socialism and it's about community, all this, just go do your research on Venezuela, and Cuba. Just, just go do your research on how that's worked out. We've got to be very careful here because this idea of— you said earlier, I deserve this, you should contribute to me, you should give me a basic income, I deserve, I deserve, I deserve. And, uh, I, I subscribe to the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson eloquently penned the words life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Not the guarantee. Yeah. The pursuit.

Yeah. You know, I was thinking about this recently with tax rates. I had a, I was talking with somebody about socialism. I said, you know what? Like, I don't, I actually generally am okay if I was taxed 50%, if I got to decide where it went.

Interesting.

From the standpoint of, okay. Like, like for me, I'm not okay with that, by the way. Okay. So I understand what you're saying, but my point is, is I'm okay with 50% of my income going towards missions and charity and things that I feel like are actually adding value to people. Sure. Or at least let me say this, I would be better with it. I don't, I don't, no, I know what you're saying. My, my point wasn't that, you know, but knowing that some of the money that I'm taxed with goes towards things that morally and ethically I would just, I'm adamantly against. Right. That's what I actually would have more of an issue with.

Right.

And so, you know, listen, I, you, you might know this, I live half the year in Puerto Rico right now. Yeah, sure. So anyways, I like the tax rate there a lot. It's 4%. Smart move. So anyways, I am again, but the point there is that I think that if there were some incentives or some abilities to be able to give, you know, if there's a percentage we could give towards things that we really care about. Now, obviously, we have a choice to do that with any excess.

I understand what you're saying, but okay, I understand what you're saying. Let me be so bold and correct me because we're friends. Sure. I think what you're really saying and what I would say is, is no, I would want you to— I want us all to have the same tax rate.

I want a flat tax.

That's what I want. I want a flat tax and I want Josh Axe to have more of his money back because I know he's actually going to give more of it away.

Yeah, that's right.

And this idea that wealthy people aren't generous is garbage. So we've got to stop with the class warfare. But I know we're going down a rabbit trail, but I'm strong in my opinion on this because we have got to start We've got to stop demonizing work and we've got to start glorifying it in the sense of you can make your mark. But one of the things we have to do as a country is we have got to address the leadership problem. And that's why I love what you're doing. Yeah. Because here's what's happening. Okay. Dovetail a topic for you. You know what we do in America? And I guess this is probably around the world. If you have a high performer, you know what we do? We promote them into a leadership role. Many times a role that they don't want. And, and, and whether or not they're prepared for it or not, if they don't want it, it's not good. And then we don't prepare them for it. Now leadership can be taught. You and I agree with this. Yeah. But if a person doesn't want to lead, we've got a problem. Now if they want to lead, we'll train you how to lead. But here's what we do in American business culture. Way to go, Josh. You killed it in sales. Top sales guy. Josh needs a promotion, deserves a promotion. Okay, let's give him some more money and let's make him the sales manager. And you take a high performer who's crushed over here, stick him in a position that he doesn't want and he may not be really wired for, and then you leave him alone, you don't develop him. So what does Josh do? So Josh in this case leads the only way he's ever seen somebody lead, which is probably crappy. And so he just does what he sees and it perpetuates itself. And that's the problem. We don't— we're not teaching leadership development. We're not teaching that leadership is as simple as maybe asking 2 questions every week to your direct reports. Hey Josh, how are you doing? Yeah, I, I know your mom has been going through a tough situation. How's she doing?

Yeah.

And then, and then Josh tells, and the leader listens and says, okay man, listen, if you need to take an extra day, just let me know.

That's good.

I'll get John to cover.

Yeah.

Second question is Hey, now that we've got all that out of the way and they know you care about them, you go, how can I help you win in your role? Do you need any resources? Do I like that? Those are the two simplest questions that a leader can ask. But if somebody came to me and said, teach me how to be a great leader in 30 seconds, that would be my 30-second leadership lesson. Ask those questions, but you got to act on them.

We have a mutual friend, Evan Tardy, who's Daniel Tardy's brother.

Sure, sure.

So he started asking something I love when he was president of one of my past companies. He would say, Where are you stuck?

Yeah.

Love that. And then how can I help you get unstuck?

Same.

I love that.

Yeah. But see, you know, John Maxwell, who I used to work for, John, and I don't know if people know that I worked for John for years and consider him a mentor. And, you know, we see each other 2, 3 times a year. John said something one time, it was so beautiful. He said, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

Yeah.

And that's a wonderful leadership lesson to go, you know, if you want to really build loyalty, and engagement, you better make sure that people know you care about them. Genuinely care. Now, you can't solve everything, but, you know, oh, I have an open door. Who cares if people are scared to walk in there and talk to you?

That's right. Yeah.

We don't care that your door's open.

Yeah.

Might as well be bolted shut. And this is where I see the major problem. And again, I'm coming at this from not an opinion. I've talked to 7,000 people on the air who are unhappy and they're leaving leaders, not companies.

Yeah.

And I don't want— and I say that sometimes, and I always think, how could someone misinterpret what I just said? So one other question.

I get it. Yeah.

People will leave you, leader, sometimes, not always because of something you did to them. It may be because of something you didn't do for them. So you're not a bad guy. It doesn't mean you're a bad person.

Yeah.

But, um, I've studied Gallup's data maniacally. I'm— I probably know as much about Gallup's data as, as anybody outside that building. And they did a study on engagement, global study on engagement, 180,000 employees over 40-some countries. And they discovered there are 3 human needs that have to be met at work in order for a person to be engaged. Number 1, they need meaning and purpose in their work. It's what we've been talking about as I talk about talent, passion, and mission. Number 2, they need to be recognized for their unique contribution on a regular basis. Hey Josh, I saw what you did the other day with that client. That was unbelievable. And you just have a— that's your, that's your thing. You're good at that. You know, a unique, like, like not just you're doing a good job. Yeah. They need to be recognized. And then third, they want a relationship with their leader. Hmm. Now this doesn't mean best friend.

Yeah.

Uh, I extrapolated this from the data. This is my opinion on this. That relationship should be one of a coach or a mentor.

Yeah.

Or a guide. You pick your favorite metaphor. It's not buddy-buddy. But it is, man, that, that guy, he cares about me.

You know, I think that there's a major— there's a hunger and thirst for a lot of people. They want— yes, a mentor. They want somebody to, you know, uh, disciple or apprentice them in a way. And I think that, um, there's so many leaders today who maybe either they don't feel equipped, so they just don't do it, or maybe they're about themselves, so they don't do it, or they just don't know how important it is. But this is something, you know, I hear this from, I hear this from a lot of men. You know, I actually, I hear it from actually probably even more women. I hear it from women who are actually sometimes in the church saying, I don't feel like I have somebody who kind of like an older woman in my life to help me, you know, navigate life and family and even career and all those things. So I hear this a lot. How do you recommend for somebody who's in that situation to find a leader at work or at life? How does somebody go and find a mentor?

Yeah, well, let's start with your, your inner circle and then your acquaintance circle. So let's look at those two circles. And it doesn't have to be somebody in your industry. It really doesn't. If you're just looking for some encouragement, uh, I, I would be looking for somebody that's at least 10 years older than me. I'd aim for 20, but this is a loose—

you're asking me? Yeah.

If it's me, uh, let's say I'm in my 20s, I want to find somebody in their 40s, uh, and 50s that are very successful. Um, and, and somebody that you actually admire.

Yeah.

Because that's going to set you up for the right posture Yeah, you know, to go in and humbly say, I just need some wisdom and knowledge in my life. You know, knowledge is fact, uh, just answers. Hey, you know, and then wisdom is, I'm considering this, or I'm at this fork in the road, what should I be thinking about? I want knowledge and wisdom. I want somebody who can give me some information because they're knowledgeable in their field, but then I want somebody who can speak with wisdom because they've walked many miles in the moccasins that they're in that I'm just trying to put on. So I would start with, don't worry about being industry specific, let's just get age, because I want experience. Yeah. And I— and with that, I want some success over that time. I'd start there. And the way I would approach it is, is don't ask for too much. Just say, hey, I would like to buy your coffee or buy your lunch. I'll honor your time. If you're good with 30, or if you'll give me 60, I'm coming. And I'm coming with a pencil and a notepad, and I just want to learn from you. And what I found is successful people find that to be very attractive.

Oh yeah, well, I can say for myself, you know, when I've had— and by the way, it's actually very rare, like nobody does it, nobody asks— but, but I've had people come up to me on occasion and they've said, hey, like, I'm thinking of one guy, Tony, and he's in a mastermind group I have. And, and, uh, Tony came up to me to say, hey, I really want to learn from you, and so ask me some questions. And then, you know, he emails me, or, you know, this was, this was a few months later, he's like, I did this and this and this and this. Everything you said, I'm ready for that. And I'm like, it is so gratifying. Yes. And I'm like, I just want to, for free, like, I just want to pour into you over and over and over again.

100%. And you know why that's true? Because you and I both are where we are because we stood on the shoulders of other people.

I got to tell you this.

We didn't get where we are.

I got to tell you this. So when I was 26 years old, I just moved to Nashville. Now I hope this doesn't make him sound bad. I'm going to say something gratifying right afterwards. I was 26 years old and I'd never heard of Dave. Right. I heard of Dave, a friend of mine, Simon Lawrence, was working for him at his live events. So, I go to an event and I meet him for the first time and I'm just like this ambitious young, you know, kid who just opened practice. And I'm like, I got to go up and just talk to Dave for like, you know, 10 seconds and just shake his hand. And I'm like, Dave, would you mentor me? And he goes, what's your name? I'm like, Josh. Again, he didn't know I was, and he goes, I'm so honored you asked, but I don't have the bandwidth or time right now. And I'm like, okay, but you know what I did then? I went and I said, you know what? I'm going to learn everything from Dave I can. So I went and met with everyone, you know, anyone who in the organization who would mentor me. I read his books and then later on I paid, went to EntreLeadership in Cancún, went to a seminar. And over the years I was able to kind of glean from him. But then I said, you know what? I do understand. Even though he said no, I'm going to seek out mentors. I remember a couple, about a year later, I met Jordan Rubin. And started learning and growing from him. And, you know, we were, when you pulled up here to the, to record to the studio, I was on the phone with Patrick Castellone.

Yeah.

Yeah. Right. And we were talking about, I mean, talk about, like, for me right now, like, I get on the phone with Pat and I'm like, okay. Yeah. I'm going to, what, what incredible, I mean, you know, leader. I'm gonna do everything I can to get around him and to learn and to grow and feed. So anyways, it's just, but no, well, so that's a great story.

So this is a great example. I love that you asked Dave, cuz The person who aims for nothing hits it every time. So I love that you took a swing. There's nothing wrong with that. But understand that most of the time you're going to get the result that Josh got with someone who is at a high level and they've got a lot going on and, and whatever, whatever. But that shouldn't deter you from going, all right, there are many other people that I can actually sit with. So have your realistic list and then have your home run list. Go for it. Now here's what I love about what you did. You learned from afar. And in today's world, it's even easier. I remember 15 years ago, uh, 6— well, 15, 20 years ago. Geez, I'm getting old. When I started thinking about getting into broadcasting, um, I went and watched every Larry King Live episode that had ever existed because of TiVo, and I could do it. And so I watched Bob Costas interviews on YouTube. I watched David Frost interviews. Charlie Rose interviews. I learned from the greatest interviewers in the world, and I never have met any of them. So it's a really good point that you make, and I want to point that out. Like, we live in a world today where you can be mentored by someone and never meet them. Yeah, emulation is a form of mentorship.

Oh yeah, I mean, the principle of modeling, I think, is the— it's the fastest way to success, right? I mean, I mean, so often I see people, I'm gonna go and try and reinvent the wheel and figure out myself, versus, yeah, no, I need to go and obsessively figure out what someone else is doing and model, not copy, but model those principles that they're, you know, that they're actually—

you did a lot of that, but you put your own spin on it. You put your spin on it.

So same thing with Dave. So, so I then heard Dave on the radio and I thought, because Dave was doing this, obviously Dave's doing his show where he's calling and helping people get out of debt, answering questions. So I went and was able to get on the same radio station. I got a 3-hour show and I did the same thing. I answered health questions for You know, 3 hours a week, very similar model. And so I, I did model Dave and eventually I got syndicated on 5 stations. Right. Now it ended up being, so I had a lot more success on YouTube and other channels. Right. So of course switched to doing podcasts.

Right.

But yeah.

Yeah. But I mean, you know, there's this little book I read. I, have you ever interviewed Austin Kleon? No. Do you know who he is?

No.

Okay. So Austin Kleon's great and I'm giving him some, some love because I've interviewed him 2 or 3 times. And he's got a book called Steal Like an Artist.

And that's how I found out. I've actually read the book. Of course you have.

I hand it out. Like, like I hand it out. I buy them by the case and hand them out. And it's a wonderful thing because it was a, it was a game changer for me when I first read it. And the idea here is, is that what he says is you, you, you consume what moves you, you know, or what you admire. So in your case, you listened to Dave Ramsey's show or you did this, you followed this person, whatever. So I, I watched Larry King Live, I watched Bob Costas, I watched those guys, and I've developed— I paid attention to what they did, and then I developed my own interview style. And that's how I broke in as an interviewer. That's how I got where I am, is I became a notable— that people, you know, this guy's really good at interviews, guys, good at it. Well, it wasn't because I'm just naturally good at it. I have some talent that I was able to build upon, but I went and studied the best of the best of the best. And what I did was before I ever read Austin's book, I realized I stole like an artist. And what he says is the great artists are always inspired by someone else. Yeah. So Bob Dylan inspired by, you know, that you start— the Beatles inspired by. And all they did was they started playing music based on what they used to— what they like to listen to, and it inspired them that, well, let's write this. So it's okay to say, oh, I'm inspired by this artist, I'm inspired by this speaker, by this author, by this preacher, by this doctor, whatever. And then you go consume more of it.

Yeah.

And then the more you consume, now begin to share and it'll come out as your version. So you're not— you're not— what he says is you're not plagiarizing, you steal like an artist steals. They hear one little line in a song and they go, ooh, I like how they did that little thing, I'm gonna do that, you know. And that's all they ever do. Yeah, that's what all the artists do.

That's right.

It's pretty fascinating when you talk to a songwriter.

Yeah, we live in—

you ever interviewed some songwriters?

Yeah, well, we had Karen on the show a couple weeks ago, and no, I didn't— I asked her a lot more, right, health.

And so I've interviewed a few songwriters, and when you interview them about their process, it's pretty fascinating, especially when they get in the room, 3 or 4 Grammy-winning, and they all got these egos and they all got talent, and then they work and meld together and they inspire each other and write a whole song in like 12 minutes.

That's amazing.

So that, that's the idea. I'm throwing that little book out there To just reinforce what you said, that, that's modeling is such an easy way to success because you begin to find your voice, your spin on something.

Yeah. And for anybody watching this, you know, I suggest highly figure out what, what Ken started talking about was what do you want to do? What is that thing that you think you could be great at? What is that thing you're passionate about? A topic. Just start scrolling on YouTube. Oh, I like this. I like this. Who— write down who are your 5 favorite people in your industry. And they consume every last thing they put out. You know, I've, I'm really studying a lot of psychology recently, and so I've read, I've watched every video and read everything Jordan Peterson's done. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, I would actually propose that nobody has watched or read more, more than he's done over the past 2 years. And so, but, but that, that's so important for people. You know, you talked about the book Steal Like an Artist.

Mm-hmm.

What is the best, what is the most for, for a certain part of your life, what is the book that has had the biggest impact on a person outside of something like the Bible?

Uh, yeah, I love this question. So my dad bought me a book for my graduation, high school graduation. It was called, uh, it was called— I almost said Steel Like an Artist. Uh, it was called Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty, and it was by a guy named Harvey McKay. My dad didn't know who he was. He just saw the book, you know, he was probably thinking, let me go to Barnes Noble or wherever he went to get my son a book. And, uh, Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty. Any, any guesses as to what that book is about? Well, no, I'm putting you on the spot. What do you think it's about?

Well, the way that I think about it is, I mean, this is an old parable about the ant and the, you know, sort of harvesting the grasshopper anyways, but that's what it is. You got it. Okay. It's about preparation, right? Preparation. Yeah.

But the specific topic was about connecting. Hmm. The word we know is networking. I hate the word networking. I think networking as we know it is dead. I think connecting is the new game.. And it's not about a million people in your inbox. It's about 100 good solid connections.

That's good.

Are they best friends? No. Are they solid acquaintances? Yes. You and I have that. We spent very little time together in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah.

But when we have, we've made a connection.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

That's what I mean. We're not best friends, but like, you know, I'm not calling you at 2 in the morning asking for 5 grand.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? But, there's a connection there. And to the extent that you could and willing to help, it's not out of bounds. Yeah. So he, yeah, the book is called Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty. Now he goes to the extreme and says, you gotta have an inner circle that you could call at 2 in the morning and ask for 5 grand.

And they go, absolutely.

Yep. But that's your, that's your inner tight circle.

That's good.

So the whole book is about connecting and about relationships. And so the Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty is always be building a relationship connection group so that the time comes Maybe you get laid off, you're not panicked because you know you got a really good network of people who are gonna look out for you and do their best to help you get a job.

This is so— it's brilliant.

It's good. It's brilliant. And it taught me at 17, I read that I'm 17, so I didn't know anything about anything in life. And I read that book and it really stuck with me. It's, it's still a great book. It sits on the shelf in my studio. I have, I have 7 books that have made huge impact in my life and I've put 'em there just because every day when I walk in, I see 'em. And they're not empty books. You know, these are books that matter here. I've got these books and I always see that book, Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty. It was the first book that outside the Bible that had a tremendous impact in my life.

Wow.

Because it taught me something. And I've always been a connector and it's because I read that book and I believed in it. I was like, I need to be always connecting, always connecting, adding value to others and knowing that it's gonna come back. And I can tell you the biggest, one of the biggest breaks in my life was because I was willing to say yes and go to a connection lunch and give advice to a friend of a friend., and I didn't want to do it, but I've just been training myself. If someone calls you, a friend, a real friend, and says, will you come to lunch with me and my friend Elizabeth? She runs a nonprofit. You know a lot about sponsorships. She doesn't know anything. Would you give her an hour of your time? And the answer is, in my mind, oh geez. But the answer was absolutely.

Yeah.

And I go have lunch with Elizabeth. Add as much value as I can. And I remember in the early parts of the lunch, small talk, and she says, my family owns a radio station in North Georgia. Fast forward from that lunch, say goodbye to Elizabeth, never gonna see her the rest of my life. And a year later, I'm hustling, trying to get on radio in Atlanta. I just— no one will return my calls, and I'm really discouraged. And I just go through my Outlook Rolodex, you know?

Yeah.

And I'm just like, I'm making a list. Is there anybody that I've— that has any connection? And I see this lady's name and I go, wait a second, she mentioned in passing. So I email her right then and there. Elizabeth, Ken Coleman, blah, blah, blah. Listen, love to connect with you sometime. Let me know if we can get on the phone in the next week. Bing! 2 minutes later. Ken, so good to hear from you. Hope you're doing well. You helped me so much. I'm still so grateful. We did so much of what you told me. Anytime you want to talk. And so I emailed her back, can you talk now? And she goes, yeah. So I call her up and I say, I remember you saying something about your family owning a radio station. She goes, oh yeah, WDUN in Gainesville, Georgia. I go, you gotta be kidding me. She goes, what do you mean? I go, I've been trying to get the general manager there to call me back for 6 months. She goes, well, I'll take care of that. I'll have a meeting with my brother who's the owner of the station inside of a week. And inside of a week, I'm sitting in the office with Elizabeth. And her brother, and that's the station that allowed me to get on the radio that started everything for me. Wow.

Amazing.

I know it's a longer story, but that's digging your well before you're thirsty.

That's so good.

I'm dig— I'm connecting, I'm adding value. It's gonna come back to me sometime when I'm thirsty. And that was a massive example of that. I was thirsty. I was really thirsty, desperate, and it came through.

There's so many principles in this. It's, you know, it's not, it's not just what you know, but it's who you know. Oh, yeah. And then, you know, I, I read a book on networking and it was actually really valuable to me. By Keith Ferrazzi called Never Eat Alone.

Never Eat Alone. That was a very powerful book. It's on my shelf at home.

Yeah.

Red, uh, or orange cover.

Yes, exactly.

Uh, I've interviewed Keith.

Hot orange. Hot orange. Yeah.

I've interviewed Keith. I would say that that book is, uh, that book, uh, I'll give you another one. Tim Sanders' book, um, Love Cat was a New York Times bestseller. Tim's a really, and Tim, if Tim were sitting here, he would be okay with me saying Tim's a different kind of dude. Uh, but that book Love Cat was wild. It was all about give yourself away, be open source.

Yeah.

And those, I would tell you those 3 books, Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty, Love Cat by Tim Sanders, and then Never Eat Alone by Keith Frazee, all books that I've read. And, and then I end up writing a, a number 1 bestselling book called The Proximity Principle.

That's right.

Which, which really was about, here are 5 archetypes of people. And 5 archetype places. People plus places. And so that book is about if I'm intentional to get around the right people and in the right places, opportunity knocks on your door. It's fascinating. Yeah, you shouldn't be kicking any door down. That is all for movies and motivational posters. If I'm around the right people, they connect me to more of the right people, they steer me the right places. I get in the right places, guess what I Guess what happens? I meet more of the right people. And then what happens is it's just a function of staying with it. Opportunity shows up. And so that book has been huge for me. And I will tell you, it's the key to success.

Connections. Yes, it's huge.

Now you got to work and you got to deliver, but you don't get a chance to work or deliver if you don't— if you aren't connected.

Yeah, that's so good. So you've met a lot. We've talked— I mean, you're a networker. You've met with so many people over the years. With all those people you've met, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Wow. Um, it was from Coach K. Wow. Coach K, uh, legendary Duke coach. Uh, it was after the interview. I'd interviewed him for an hour. It was for a Maxwell Simoncast. Incidentally, the first interview I ever did. It's a fun story. I won't tell it now. Um, but I was not a father yet. And, and so we had broken the set down and he's saying a few words. I said, hey, Coach, I just want to ask you one thing. I want to be a dad one day more than anything in the world. I want to be a dad. And, and I just, you know, as a coach of young men, what, what advice from parenting or coaching would you give to me? And he, he thought for a second. He said, he said, I'll give you some advice that I've learned as a coach. That's just as good for a parent. He said, in all my years, I've had to realize I got 12 guys on a basketball team and they're all very different. And he said, over, over, over the years, I've never been a guy for rules, so I didn't have many rules. He said, but, you know, I had some basic rules, like if you're late, we're going to leave you. If you're late for a game and you're not there, the bus is rolling, you're done. He said, but I adjusted that rule over time. If a senior was late an All-American was late, and it was the first time, or a very rare time, that I was going to wait for them. But if a freshman showed up and he was late, we were going to leave them. And he said, I've developed a policy that fair, not equal, is how I lead the team. Fair, not equal. We're gonna be fair, but I can't treat every player the same way. And he said, I wouldn't treat your kids all the same way. And he said, Your kids are all gonna be wired very differently. You need to be fair, but you can't parent them the same. And that stuck with me. And, uh, so that's, that's not, that's not career advice or success. Well, it is, it's success advice. Uh, if you're gonna be a parent, and I think as a leader it's transferable. Yeah. So that's why I share. I think that's probably the most profound thing anybody's ever told me. Cause it's like we live in a world where it's like, no, everyone's gotta be equal. And he, you know, There's a difference between equality and equity.

Yeah, right.

That's another funnel we can go down. But so as a leader, I'm going to be managing a team of people and there's going to be some thoroughbreds and there's going to be some good old plow horses that do a good job. They're Clydesdales. There's a difference between a Clydesdale, you know, a mule, you know, and thoroughbred. Yeah. So I gotta be fair and consistent, but I can't treat all of them equally.

Yeah. I, I was watching an interview recently with Deion Sanders. He actually said something very similar in how he treats his players and team. Yeah.

And that's the complexity of leadership and the complexity of parenting. Um, fair is the key thing. You're principled and you're consistent.

Yeah.

Um, but I've gotta handle different people different ways.

And, and this is relational too, because yes, you can only do that when you know the person.

That's right.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. You got to know your whole team to go, all right, I can bust this guy's chops. Like, I can kind of make fun of him a little bit and get a message across. I can call him out in front of a few people and he's going to kind of, aw shucks, and he's going to be okay. Can't do that with this person.

Yeah.

It would humiliate, defeat, denigrate.

Yeah.

It's that kind of thing.

Like, some people need to be challenged more. Some people need to be nurtured more.

That's right.

There's that. Yeah.

That's right. Some people need to be called out in front of the whole team. Some people it's got to be private. Yeah. Uh, you know, some people, um, some people need a lot of hands-on leadership.

Yeah.

Some people, leave them alone. Yeah. Like free-range chicken. Just make sure they're in the yard.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's how you lead that person.

Yeah.

Same thing with a kid. I mean, I'm experienced. I've got 3 kids right now and we're in the teenage years, so it's crazy to believe it. My kids are now out of nowhere. I've got a senior, sophomore, and an 8th grader. All three of them very, very different. And I have learned the hard way that Coach is right. Yeah. When I try to take my style and apply it to all three, I screw up.

Yeah.

When I parent them with their style, I win.

That's so good. You know, one of the first things we, we, we started talking about, you know, we're talking about your family. We also talked about, uh, you talked about most people today when they think of success, it's about power.

Yep.

Fame and fortune. That's right. What does success look for you, let's say, 25 years from now? What would you say, okay, this is a successful life for Ken Coleman?

Yeah, uh, very simple. Uh, happily and healthily married. I've been married 25 years. Uh, that he was a good husband and he was faithful to Stacy. He was a good father and loved and prepared his kids and was in their corner. And then, uh, he was a faithful friend. He was there for me when I needed. He was a big cheerleader, always cheering me on. Like, that was Ken. Um, and then as a worker in my occupational life, just that he did what he was absolutely supposed to do. The dude was just in his own— he was, he was, he was in his sweet spot. He, he did what he was born to do.

And he, he took 5 talents, he turned them into 10.

Yeah. Like, yeah, he just, he, he did what he was supposed to do. It's not about the level that I did it at. It's not about how much money I made. It will be that I made a difference in the significant way that I can make it. So really, I gave you some specifics. It would, the simple answer is, is that I made the mark that only I could make.

That's so good.

And that's significance. Yeah. Like significance is we're all significant, but I made my, like, I'm unique. Here's how I opened up my show for years. You were created to fill a unique role. You were needed. You must do it. Hmm. There's 3 things that are said in that statement. You were created. Okay. There's intentionality. You were designed. Yeah. There's a specific, there's specificity here. A unique role. You must do it. Duty. And I think if someone could say that about me, then that's success.

That's good. So good.

Relationally and professionally, there's only purpose in two areas of our life: relationally, professionally. And if I fill my role— husband, father, friend, teammate, and then coworker— and if I've done that, then I'm, then I'm good.

It's so good. Well, Ken, I love having you on. Thanks, bro.

Oh, it was so fun.

I want to encourage everybody, check out Ken's book. It's called The Proximity Principle. It's really good for you being able to find out what you're great at and help you contribute in a meaningful way. Also, check out the Ken Coleman Show. It's a great show. You can find it on the Ramsey Network. And I want to just say thanks everybody for watching today. Uh, another episode of the Growth Lab. We're always talking about how to grow yourself, your health, your wealth, your career, your relationships, uh, and so much more. And also, if you're not subscribed here, make sure to subscribe. Again, thanks so much to Ken Coleman for coming on the show, and thanks everybody for listening.