How to Overcome Anxiety & Thrive in Chaos | Rebekah Lyons

Hey everyone, welcome to the Dr. Josh Axe Show. Each and every week we uncover the truth and principles to how to take your body, mind, and spirit to the next level. On today's episode, I'll be interviewing Rebecca Lyons, and Rebecca is a close friend of mine, her and her husband Gabe. She's an author, speaker, and podcast host. She's been featured all over the place on everything from Good Morning America to Fox News to CNN. And one of the things I've loved about Rebecca is she shared her journey through overcoming anxiety, depression, and adversity. And, and really, uh, one of her big messages is how to build a resilient mind. And so we'll talk about that and, uh, and a whole lot more today. But Rebecca, great, great to see you.

Oh, it's a joy, Josh. Anytime we get to have a chat, I'm all in. So thanks for having me.

Well, we have a lot to, a lot to get, get to. I, uh, one of the things I wanted to start off is just you just sharing a little bit about yourself and your family. I know you're, you're a mother of 4, including you've got 2 children with Down syndrome.

And I wanted to ask you really the—

what really how your faith plays a role in, uh, in your life, you know, through the ups and through the downs. And I know that, you know, you're kind of balancing being a mom, being a, a business leader, and everything else. And so I'd love to hear about what role your faith plays.

Sure. Uh, well, I was born into a family of faith, so that was really a part of my upbringing my whole life, kind of attended church and believed in God. But God became very personal, uh, into my teen years and then my 20s when my husband Gabe and I got married. And 3 years in, we had a baby and found out 6 hours later that they saw signs of Down syndrome, um, just in this initial screening. And, uh, that was confirmed 6 days later with genetic testing. And that really— I was 26 at the time— catalyzed my faith journey in so many ways because I already felt like a kid having a kid, and then my entrée to motherhood was very much fraught with a lot of unknown and a lot of insecurity and grief. And so God in that year just got real loud, and I just remember lots of teary moments, um, praying, asking for his nearness, his peace, his comfort, his presence, his power— all the things. I just wanted all of God, especially in that year when we were fighting for my son's life. And As a result, um, when you've— when you find God in places of pain or suffering and you feel his comfort and his, his care, and you find that he goes before you and he brings people around, um, it just seals a relationship that you just never— you don't ever want to stray from. And so that, that took new form 9 years later when we moved to New York City and I kind of developed panic disorder over about a year and a half, and God got really loud again. And I was like, I just need to trust that you're my rescue and my peace, um, in any moment that I can cry out your name and that you comfort. And so I found God doing that for me in the streets of New York City, just like I had in, you know, in my home when Cade was a baby. And now I'm in my 40s, and I'm, uh, almost not quite 50, but just helping people find their faith in the middle of their mental health and just letting um, the, the help that we can get, whether it's clinicians or what you're doing and all the work that you're doing with the brain and the body, but then also knowing that God is also our, our help and, and our hope. And I think he really does use all means necessary for our healing.

Yeah, it's so good. And, you know, I think when we go through hard times in life, and obviously you've discovered this and I know talked about this, but, you know, we can either sort of press in and allow it to refine us and help us grow, grow closer to God and grow ourselves, or sometimes we could use it for evil, right? And we can just get worse. And so I love how you've been able to take such a difficult situation and use it for purpose in life and to speak life to other families. And one of the things I love that you've been so honest about is your struggle with anxiety, but also thoughts like, I'm not enough. And where do you think these types of limiting beliefs, the things like, I'm not smart enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy enough, Where do you think these sort of limiting beliefs typically originate? And then what can we do to start to renew our minds to the truth?

You know, that's really shame. Ultimately, shame separates, and it separates us from God. It separates us even from ourselves, even knowing what, what we long for, what we yearn for, what we want healing in. And it separates us from one another. And so shame is a way— it began in like the origin story in, in the scriptures. It begins in the garden where when we do something or we feel something and we feel embarrassed, we hide. And so it might be something— the way someone treated you that you felt shame, like you felt like not enough because someone told you you weren't enough. It might be where you heard that for a season and then you just agreed with it, and then you started telling yourself, you know, when we condemn ourselves, our words have so much power. And so when we agree with those things and then go, yeah, you're right, I am not enough. Look at me, I'm a terrible this, that, or the other. All we're doing is carving these new neural pathways in our brain that reinforce every time when we hide from relationships, or we hide from our worth, or our longing, or our heart, when we retreat. And so shame often manifests in the way we talk to someone when we begin to look down and to the left, when we lose eye contact with someone, that's a symptom of experiencing some internal unworthiness. And then sometimes if you have conflict with someone who's close to you, not only do you look away, but you leave the room, like you retreat to a place of quote-unquote safety, because when you're alone, you can sit with that shame and nurse it versus stay in a place where you feel unworthy, and it's scary and terrifying. And so you do whatever you can to run from that feeling. But if you avoid shame or you avoid fear, it grows. And so the challenge to reverse this, to carve a new pathway in your brain that says, this is not a place of danger, this is not a place of unworthiness, this is not a relationship of rejection. But the kryptonite to shame is vulnerability. So, if you can stay in the room and you can start to lead with, "I'm experiencing grief right now," or, "I'm experiencing fear," or, "I feel sadness that there is a distance between us," just by saying the words out loud, you're like poking a pin in a balloon that is shame and separation. And so, when you start and lead with vulnerability, you recover relationship. You come near again. And not just with God, you come near to your spouse or to your children, or you come near to your heart, you get honest with going, wow, I never knew that I ran from all the hard things, but I wanna lean into them because I know there's a healing available to me when I step towards pain instead of turn from it. So that's a real key thing of unworthiness is why do you, do you remember the first time you felt unworthy? Do you remember where it came from? Did someone speak something of rejection towards you? Did you then agree with it? Um, and then what does God want to do right now to reverse that story, to rewrite that story with a different ending? And when we confront it, uh, we will begin to overcome it.

I love that, Rebecca. You know, one of the things I also think that's just so important that I've heard you talk about is the power of identity. And when we go through trauma or life circumstances that sort of rattle us, you know, how can we discover, rediscover who we are and, and whose we are?

Right. Goodness. Um, so often now we want to have some label or diagnosis that helps define who we are. So if we're struggling with something and we go to the doctor and they want to give us like, you are experiencing ADHD or ADD or PTSD, or there's all these numbers that want to follow our name that somehow help explain what we're coming up against. The problem with these labels is that over time, they begin to define us instead of describe what adversity is currently looking like in our life. And we have never been called by God, uh, or labeled by our brokenness or our struggle. We've been labeled as beloved and chosen and appointed and in— and the beautiful son and daughter of God that we are. So if we're people of faith, we, we have a— an identity that is founded in our goodness and our redemption story, not so much in the things that are hard or broken. It's not to ignore that things will come against us, that we will experience some form of adversity throughout our lives. I mean, it's very clearly defined even in our faith journey that like, the world isn't just simple. You're gonna have trouble. But we also can trust that there's a force greater than us, that Christ himself says, "I've overcome the world." Like, we can experience a faith that overcomes even what we're experiencing today and what we'll experience in the future, or what we experienced a year ago. And so the knowing of that allows us to go, okay, I might be walking through something hard right now, but it doesn't define who I am. And, and this idea of, of identity being found in the goodness of God, the resurrection of whatever our story looks like, uh, the, the redemption or the fullness, the life, the life that we are living. So you can have a friend who might be like battling cancer, or you might have yourself who's battling mental health, on a mental health journey. You can just say like, I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna decide that today is a good day. Like, I don't have agency over the future or the past, but I do have agency over the present. And I get to decide how to respond to whatever that adversity looks like. And so for me, it just became very mental to go like, I, I am loved. I'm loved, and I'm grateful, and I'm joyful, and it's going to be a good day. And it's not to deny the adversity, but it is to choose to respond with it in faith and that so much forms our identity, that we have hope. We always have hope in something that's beyond maybe this moment right in front of us. And when we can see in that fullness, that picture, then we're going to keep living fully with what we've been given.

Yeah, it's so good. You know, I know when I was going through my, uh, the, the trauma with my back and things like that, it was like, well, what if I can't— you know, what if I can't walk? What does that do to my identity? Like, how do we do that? And I just had to press into faith and believe that God was bigger than those circumstances, right? And that trauma. And so that's, you know, that's— I see that being so important because I think— I mean, you know, right now we're living in a world today where there's so much identity confusion, right? And identity is sort of the foundation for— that feeds everything else. Identity feeds our purpose. Identity feeds our roles and responsibilities and how we connect with our family and what we view as living a meaningful life. And so that's really, really, really, really helpful. You know, I know another thing you shared with— you've been really vulnerable about is is loneliness. And I think anytime anybody gets put in a position that's new for them, um, and it could be grow— you know, maybe someone becomes a CEO and when— or, or experiences a great level of success, or, you know, has something happen in their family that's just very, you know, very, very trying and difficult, it's very easy to, you know, feel loneliness. And for those who are wrestling with loneliness, What advice would you give them about navigating it from, from a spiritual perspective?

Yeah, that's so good. Well, for starters, there's a difference between loneliness and solitude. Sometimes the Lord calls us into places that are hidden because he wants to be loud in our lives. He wants to draw us close. He wants to comfort, like I was talking about earlier. And there's almost a refuel— there's a refueling or a filling that comes from that, a replenishment that comes from that, which is really wonderful. Loneliness, on the other hand, is where we don't imagine anyone and we're ruminating on whatever is hard in our brain and it starts to spin. And loneliness often can be a precursor to depression because we actually don't have anyone around us to remind us what is true. Or to point us to things that are good, or point us to, like, future hopes or future promises. And so loneliness requires that we reach out. It just does. And sometimes when you start to spiral with loneliness, you feel less likely to reach out because you're just kind of spinning down the drain, you know. You're just recycling, like, everyone is a little bit better off without me, or I bring too much of this or that into the conversation. I seem to— again, we go back to the original thing where we speak death of ourselves, or we feel shame or unworthiness, but it can all swirl together. So I remember a few years back, we were— had just moved to a new town in my 40s. So you're starting over with friendship in your 40s, which is awkward because a lot of people have been friends in this town for a very long time and raised their kids together. And my daughter was starting middle school while I was starting life here as a 40-something. And we were just— I was giving her tips. I'm like, how to make a friend. I'm like, I think you just like compliment their outfit and their hair and be like, do you want to sit with me at lunch? And like, just the simple ways of initiating a friendly tone, right? Like, be the friend. And so God gave me the word for her: be the friend you wish to have. And it was from a girlfriend of mine who I'd known for years. And I thought, how do I begin again, um, as a mama? Well, I want to be the friend that I wish to have. And I want a friend who's honest and vulnerable and generous and kind and will make others feel welcome that might feel like they're in the margins and include them. I want an includer as a friend. And so I knew that I had to lead with those things. Um, and I'm— I've been here almost 10 years now, which tells you how most— how old I am. And honestly, I just finished, um, a group this morning with 14 girls around the table that are like going through scripture and being vulnerable and honest and loving and kind. And you get to actually cultivate a community of friendships that, that you long for, and you lead by doing that yourself. And so if you feel intimidated about that, or like no one's going to want that, trust me, if you're lonely, someone right next to you is also lonely. And so someone needs to take the initiative to be like, hey, do you want to grab coffee sometime? Let's go work out together. Just initiate. Most people are waiting for an invitation. They are just as lonely as you.

It's so true. We have literally like a loneliness epidemic today. And I actually read a— there's a medical study that said loneliness or feeling lonely for prolonged period of time is the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. It's that bad for somebody's health if it continues to go on and on year after year. So obviously loneliness, community, being connected to others is so important today. So many of us are living in this fight or flight state. Parasympathetic nerve system. And we have fear of a lot of things— fear of disappointing others, fear of failure. And I know that this is something that you personally struggled with in your life. You were able to, you know, overcome in many ways and then help others break free as well. So one of the questions I had for you is, you know, how does somebody, uh, break free of fear if somebody has this sort of fearful mindset or has a lot of worry or these emotions that and ways torment them or hold them back in life. What are some things that people can start to do to break free of fear?

Well, goodness, when we avoid fear, it grows. So you think you're going to kind of avoid the places that might bring fear. For me, that was claustrophobia. I was rooted in claustrophobia with panic disorder 13 years ago. So I would avoid every place that might create any bit of unrest in me, whether it was a plane or a train, an elevator, a subway.. And what I found is there was intimidation to even enter those places while I cognitively knew, like, I'm not going to die on this elevator, but my lower brain was telling me otherwise. It was an acute onset of fight or flight. It's that primal reptilian part of your brain that's all about survival. Your breathing goes shallow, your heart rate accelerates, your extremities are, um, they're like tingle. All those things happen when you are gripped in fear. And so, um, thankfully I had good counsel early on. I just said, you're going to have to— instead of turn away from pain, you're going to have to turn towards it. Which is really scary because obviously there's versions of this called cognitive behavioral therapy, and you want to do that with trusted friends and community around you. But the way to grow in resilience towards these things is these moderate, predictable, controllable, uh, activations of your stress response.. And so I knew that I needed to just take baby steps towards the fear, but I couldn't avoid fear. And so for me, it looked like getting on a plane and I had some resiliency strategies that I would always use. I had kind of some meditations that I would say, I would, I would whisper a prayer. I would, I would just continue to kind of pay attention to my body in advance and know that there was a game plan. Uh, same with elevators. I knew initially I would get on, but I wanted to be with someone. I didn't want to do it alone. And then over time I would do it alone and I made sure they were newer buildings with not old elevators that might break down at any point, like, because I lived in New York City still. So while I had that panic disorder the first couple of years in New York, I still lived there for 3 more years in a high-rise, getting on subways, walking into elevators, getting on planes, starting to teach about mental health. So even when there's meaning attached to the thing that you're afraid of, the meaning, if it outsizes the fear, you're going to actually push through the fear to go share about how to heal. And so the meaning actually gave me courage to confront the fear. And I think, like anything, when you start to face the thing that used to intimidate you or threaten you or kind of sideline you, when you face it and confront it and you start to do it over and over and over, you, you rewire the brain, and there's new neural pathway that, that heals from the old one that says you're, you're made for this, you can do this. What once was scary and terrifying is now just a resilience-building exercise. You can do this, get back out there and keep going.

I, I love the way you put that. It's a resilience-building exercise, and this is something that is critically important. You know, one of the things that a lot of psychologists have done and realized is, is that it's like working a muscle. If you can change your perspective about stress or a difficult situation and realize, hey, by, by getting on the airplane, by writing the first page of the book I've been putting off, by confronting this person in this relationship, I'm actually able to now grow and get stronger through it and come out the other side. And I don't think a lot of people think about that way. I think most people, when they think about it, they feel like it's going to— whether it's conscious or subconscious, it's probably both— but this is going to hurt me in some way, when in fact it can actually help you grow and get stronger.

It's so helpful. It's so helpful. And that's how kids grow. We don't tell them, like, the first time they fell down in first grade, like, you need to just come back home and not go back to school. It's like, you need to pick up your— you know, get up, dust off your bread, you're okay. Like, sometimes kids just respond to our response. And if we're like, you got this, look how strong you are, you're so brave, and we honor not their achievement but we honor their, uh, their effort and their work ethic and show how strong and how hard they work towards something, then they'll see that life is kind of a series of this. Whether they're in sports or athletics, every year your child goes into a new classroom with a new teacher and new peers and new competitions or new, um, you know, performances if they're in, in the arts. And they're building resilience every year that they go into new environments because the brain needs novelty to heal. It actually needs, um, to grow and, and repair injured neurons. It has to have a repetitive way of activating the stress response system in these moderate, predictable, controllable ways with people outside of them supporting them, cheering them on. Look it, you did it! And then the next time they do it, they're so proud of themselves. That's how you grow confident kids. It's not to coddle and rescue. It's to go, okay, I know that was hard, but look at how— look at how strong you are because of that. We need to hear that same pep talk as adults.

That's so good. I love you bringing it back to that because it's true. I'm thinking about, you know, our 3-year-old right now, and it's like, you got to go to school. You don't want to? You got to take gymnastics. Like, you, you've got to go do these things. But we don't treat ourselves the same way, right? Uh, most of the time. You know, another thing I think that is really critically important for somebody living their best life, you know, breaking through limiting beliefs and also getting that place in life where they say, I'm living my best life right now. One of the things people have to do is they have to take the right type of risks, right? I'm not talking about taking irresponsible risks, but smart risk. For instance, I have a family member who they're going to go back and get a medical, a medical degree, a nurse practitioner degree, and they've got a really safe and comfy job right now. And so for them to go do that, they're going to go through a dip of losing money and whatever. But, but they want to make an impact in the health space, and so they're going to go and take a risk that's very— it's smart to fulfill something that they've really dreamed about doing. But a lot of times people struggle with this fear of failure, and I think oftentimes, sometimes it can be tied to things like, you know, perfectionism. But before I do anything or take any risk, everything has to be perfect. All the stars have align. What are your thoughts or advice for people who are maybe living in that state of perfectionism, that are waiting for everything to line up or for some sort of magic to happen before they actually go and, and do that thing that they dreamed about? Again, write the book or, or, or, or start the business or, or, or, or, or move cities.

Well, I would just consider which fear is greater, you know, a fear of apathy or just being static or complacent You know, I think, I think for me, the fear of like losing passion or desire or a hunger for life is always greater than a fear of risk. If we, if we, if we just think if we're growing, then we can't fail. Like if we're growing every year and learning something new every year, We're, we're creating a healthier brain, for starters, because the brain is wired to learn and to grow and to overcome. That's what— how we've been made by God. And so when we, when we foster that and we put ourselves in the path of learning— I'm in grad school right now in my late 40s. I'm— there's something new I want to learn because there's something that it quickens in our spirit. It just, it makes us come alive It shows us, um, how big life is and how much there is still out there to discover or uncover. And what it'll do is it'll bring a youthfulness to you, it'll bring an excitement, a vigor. But it helps when you put yourself around people that are also growing. Like, you want to have peers that are— put yourself in a path of a growing environment. Where nobody wants to numb out in life. Nobody wakes up, you know, when they're 5 and be like, when I'm 40, I want to just check out and numb out. No, usually that comes because you didn't have to push yourself anymore, and so you got complacent. But there's an unease that comes with being complacent, with being just kind of like status quo. There's a side of us that's hungering for more, and we might not put words to it, but if we just try by learning something new this year— every year, what is new thing you can grow in, then I think you're going to continue to live life into your 50s and 60s and 70s with like a bigger mindset of legacy and giving back and continually, uh, being alive. And so my, my hope is, you know, no matter what we do in life in our 50s, 60s, 70s, that we show our kids and our grandkids like Aging is fun because Mom and Dad are always learning new things and we're trying new things. And the, the best part about risk, honestly, is that you get to fail forward. Like, you're not going to learn unless you do. The knowing is in the doing. And so when you try stuff— I've gardened for 5 years now. Well, trust me, I'm a much better gardener year 5 than I was year 1. But every year I'm like, okay, I want to learn how to can. Okay, now I want to learn how to do all this, uh, hybrid stuff and plant from seed. Well, it's just because I've gotten into it and it's invigorating, and so I'm like, let's try something new again.

So Rebecca, one of the things that I, uh, know that so many people deal with is they are fighting to overcome limiting beliefs and break through and become who they were born to be, is silencing their inner critic. You know, so many of us have this sort of narrative in our head that maybe I'm not smart, or I'm not good enough, or I'm not worthy, or something bad, you know, the world is generally bad and bad things happen to even good people. There's so many different narratives. How does someone silence their inner critic and go from negative self-talk to more positive self-talk?

Well, I would just try to establish the root of where that inner critic began. It does help to go back and go, how old were you when you first experienced that inner critic? Was it an outer voice or was it an internal voice? And then did you agree with it and then start repeating it? Because what happens is the brain likes this persistent negative thoughts. I mean, we have so many persistent negative thoughts that might have started with a single thought, but over time we just kept rehearsing it. So now it's like the air we breathe and it's the currency and it's just the way we speak to ourselves. And we might not think it's possible to change that. But if you go back to the origin story, I'm always encouraging people, go back to your family of origin or your origin story, and how did you think of yourself as a kid? Were you fearless? Were you joyful? Were you optimistic? And were you a learner? Were you a grower? And if you, if you were, then when did that change? Was there a kind of a, a fracture somewhere in adolescence where someone might have spoken something really harmful over you that just you began to believe? And if you can name that kind of the root, or at least come back to a little better understanding of how it began, you can just decide. Um, for me, it's through faith. Like, I'm just going to reject that. I'm— I reject that. I— what do I want to receive is— and replace that with is goodness and, and hope and a future and, and joy and light and all the things that we want our lives to be about. And but it— you can't like take away a negative thought unless you replace it with a positive thought. You, you can try to like, I'm going to stop thinking bad things. Well, that's not going to work. You're just going to ruminate on the fact that you want to keep stopping thinking about bad things. Instead, you're going to start to meditate on good things and you're going to start to speak those things out, like out loud. Like for me, vocalizing them not just in my mind but in my mouth. Declaring with my mouth takes captive in many ways the toxic thoughts and says over them the truth. And, um, as if— as a Christian, I know that the truth sets us free. So I start to speak the truth of what I believe the situation is. Like, I've been given— I've been given health, I've been given a family, I've been given goodness and gifts, and I want to use those to give back. And so you just start to ask for a vision of your future that you want to live into, and then you speak into it, you affirm it, you, you have faith for it, and you step into it. You don't just speak it and say it, but you act into it. And, and then also, when there's a temptation to run back to the old thoughts or the negative patterns of thoughts, just say, no, I'm going to interrupt this right now, and I'm going to say something that is good and true and beautiful and instead.

This is so good. You know, this is one of the things we cover in chapter 1 of the book, is, uh, you know, being able— and, and I correlate it to having a memory or a mindset transplant. You need to first go and say, become aware of when did this start, what was the event that happened. And then, as you're saying, in addition to that, you got to go and replace it and then build upon that and, and prove to your neurological system and your spirit that, hey, this is true, is that I, I am smart. Uh, here are, here are examples of my worthiness and that, that, that, uh, people that I admire have said about me, that I see about myself, that God says about me, that really starts to build that up. And so I absolutely love what you're sharing there. You know, one of the other important things that I think, um, you know, I talk about in the book and I know you've talked about before, and that is the importance of just being committed to growth and getting better and better and better every day. And, you know, I, I, and, and So we, we talk about this in this chapter as being a growth mindset. And so having a mindset for saying, I'm going to grow— there's some unique studies saying if you pursue happiness, you will become unhappy. In fact, the research is just conclusive of if you pursue personal fulfillment, you will be unhappy. But the research shows probably the greatest, or one of the greatest things that will cause you to be happy in life is if you are growing and getting better in your character and your skill in these areas. What is your advice for anybody who's saying, I, I want to build a growth mindset, I want to grow personally? How are some ways that we can practically grow?

Well, transformation happens one small step at a time. So every day you wake up, you have a decision to make. What— how are you going to see the day? And so Dr. Amen says, say out loud, today is going to be a great day. And I remember hearing that the first time when I was walking through a really hard season. Actually, I had just lost my mother-in-law. After a 4-year battle of cancer. And I was grieving, and I was feeling the weight of that, that sadness. And, and it was real. And, and we want to honor that season of grief because grief is real, and, and that was necessary and appropriate. At the same point, sometimes we can get caught in an eddy of grief where we just spin and spin and spin, and all of a sudden we're months out and we're still feeling overcome by these waves of grief. And I thought, okay, I want to start to think about what is good today. And I'm going to say this phrase, 'Today's going to be a great day,' out loud. And I started to laugh at myself because it felt so counterintuitive to say it, but it became true. And, and with that became a lighter spirit and more joy and more laughter and more, uh, proactive steps on engaging people and initiating friendships and cultivating growth. And so as that positivity, that serotonin that was released in my brain by saying these things, kind of built upon itself, then all of a sudden I'm like, okay, I want to go to grad school and I'm going to do it with these friends, and I want to try to grow sweet potatoes this year because I love those and I didn't have those last year. And just being more open to the possibility of in every little area of life. Uh, we just got 12 new baby chicken chicks of all different varieties last night because I want all different color eggs. And just expanding, um, the possibilities of joy in all these encounters. And it all began by just deciding, okay, yes, grief is real, trauma is real, sadness is real. I'm going to honor those feelings and emotions because they need to be honored. And the life needs to be honored that I miss, which is my mother-in-law. But also, I know that she would have it, and just like God would have it and my community would have it, that we would all live fully, even on the other side of grief and loss. And that we would do that with a growth mindset of going one small step at a time. What can I do today that will activate the serotonin that will help my brain go, okay, there's positivity, there's well-being, there's desire, there's hunger, there's growth.

Yeah. Another thing I've heard you talk about, which— and by the way, I love everything you're saying, and, and I think that it's critical for growth. And part of growing is becoming more resilient, right? And so I think the bigger you get, the stronger you get, you become more resilient. So what are some ways, in addition to that, that somebody can become more resilient as we go through those hard seasons and those trials and tribulations, whether it's ourselves or someone we care about, how can we become more resilient?

Wow. Well, there's kind of 5 principles I use in, um, the book Building a Resilient Life, and it's name the pain, shift the narrative, embrace adversity, make meaning, and endure together. And we've touched on that in this conversation, but shift the narrative was a big one because once you've acknowledged that things are hard, that's, that's good, uh, or whatever that— like you said, whatever that lie that was spoken over you early on that you agreed with and you kept repeating, and then you kind of always felt unworthy. You shift the narrative and you say instead, okay, what, what does my family say over me? What do I believe about me? What does God say about me? What is, what is joyful and optimistic even in the hard thing? And then all of a sudden you're able to embrace the hard and you're not intimidated by it. And that's why I was able to get on planes or or still, like, put myself in environments that might be scary prior, but go, okay, now there's a meaning attached to it. I want to help other people who are walking through hard things that I am very familiar with. I have been in their shoes. I understand, and I can practice empathy with them. But I can also go, but you can push yourself into a way of growth. And then finally, this idea of enduring together shows that you can't build resilient lives alone. You You definitely need peers around you, friendships that you've grown to trust and depend on, that also depend on you, and relationships of reciprocity where you can advance hard things knowing that somebody else is encouraging you, cheering you on. Josh, you have been such a picture of this in my life, in my husband's life. As a friend, just watching you overcome adversity, you grow in resilience. We've shared the ways we've grown in resilience. If you put yourself around people that are doing hard things, that are finding their legs to stand up again after really extreme seasons of adversity, you're so inspired by their story and their, um, and the momentum that came on the other side of that, that you can't help but just step towards it. And so I'm just thankful that we're all made for resilience. And historically, society has always healed with resilience from generations to generations through community, through belief, through regulating rhythms to push themselves, and through medicinal herbs and natural ways. And so if we put those things in place in our lives, we're going to keep growing in resilience.

That's so good. Well, Rebecca, thanks so much for coming on today. I know you've got a great new book out called Building a Resilient Life. And it's critical if we want to thrive through life, not just survive. We've got to become more resilient. And I want to encourage everybody to check out Rebecca. Her books are fantastic. Also follow her on social media. Her and her Gabe— her and her husband Gabe have been incredible friends of mine, have really blessed Chelsea and I with just their wisdom and, uh, and just, just being a light in the world. One of the things I'm always so impressed by with you and Gabe as well is just how outspoken you are about your beliefs and and just wanting to, you know, do good in the world. And so thanks so much for coming on today's show.

Thank you, Josh. I'm so grateful. So good to see you.

Good to see you as well. Well, everybody, thanks so much for tuning in to the Dr. Josh Axe Show, where each and every week we uncover the truth and principles of how to grow in body, mind, and spirit. Hey, make sure to subscribe, like, and share. Thanks so much for being on mission with me, and I'll see you on the next episode.