How Worship Saved His Life (After Hitting Rock Bottom) | Michael W. Smith

I hit rock bottom. I had a near drug overdose thing that I feel like I almost died. I felt like the devil was trying to take me out. I was stuck and I was in a pit and I couldn't get out. I went down on my floor for 3 and a half hours at midnight, and I twisted and I turned and I wept and I shook. And about 3:15 in the morning, I was so exhausted and I felt like Albert was laying on the floor with me with his arm around me. He says, I got you, it's gonna be okay. And I haven't been the same since that night.

I think anytime that you get a song on that's uplifting, that's moving in some way, it really can change your perspective. change you from being depressed or anxious to peaceful and joyful in just moments.

Just how a 3 and a half minute song can change somebody's life is remarkable. It's just the power of music.

One of the biggest things I found that helped me heal, and then I started digging in the research around this and seeing there's so much evidence for it, but just spending time in praise and worship.

I think there's so much that God wants to reveal to us, like some really like deep, deep, deep stuff that's like earth-shattering. But I think he only gives it to the deep people. When you abide on a deep, deep level, he gives otherworldly ideas to creative people. We were all in the basement. She was the only one who hadn't prayed. We all had prayed there, but she just couldn't say anything. So I touched her shoulder. Electricity flew down my body. I've never experienced anything like that. And I started to laugh. And a minute later, we can't catch our breath on the floor, laughing uncontrollably. Something broke in that basement and everything changed.

All right, on today's episode, I've got Michael W. Smith. Now, he's a person I've listened to for a long time, his incredible music, but today we're gonna dive into some of his natural health practices, his farm.

We're also gonna talk about how praise and prayer can help you heal and so much more. Michael, welcome to the show.

Thank you. I'm glad to be on.

Well, you know, I think I first met you, we were doing a Bible study together with Ed Silvoso. I don't know if you remember that. You know, this is quite a few years ago. And, uh, but I listened to your music far before this. In fact, I remember in junior high, I went to a Christian elementary school in junior high, and we would listen to your songs constantly. In fact, I remember being moved to tears with, I think it was Friends of Friends Forever. Probably every, every graduation across the country, Christian school, we're playing some of your amazing music. And so anyways, I'm super excited to have you on. So thanks for coming on.

Yeah, thank you.

Well, I want to dive in and talk about a lot of things. I think there's a lot of maybe things that you do personally for your health and things that you've done for years that I think are gonna be interesting to talk about today. One of the first things is, and we were just talking about this, you've got a greenhouse and you've got chickens.

Yeah.

Well, now what got you into sort of, you know, farming and some of these other gardening and these natural practices?

Well, I think first and foremost, as you, um, as you get older, and if you sort of have somewhat of a clarity of mind, you want to, you want to live a long life. And to live a long life, you need to hang out with the right people, you need to eat the right things.

Yeah.

You know, and, uh, we've had a garden forever, every place we've lived. Um, but when we moved out to Franklin, um, we finally bought this farm. It's a long story short, so we have 200 acres, about About 20 minutes from where we live. And so we built a barn, and so then we started growing stuff out there. And then we, we met Jordan Rubin and talked about Greenhouse and all the stuff he's growing on his farm, and, and we thought, let's build a greenhouse. So we got this, uh, gosh, these guys, it was, it was an amazing day of building the greenhouse. It was just awesome. These guys, they're not Amish, but they're Dutch, uh, uh, yeah, yeah, it's either, uh, Philadelphia, they speak Philadelphia Dutch, I think they do. You know, they got their suspenders on and they put that thing up like in less than 6 hours. So, so we really got into it and we're growing stuff. So, you know, just being able to, to pick stuff like almost every day we pick stuff and we eat it that night. I mean—

So great.

It's pretty awesome, you know, and there's nothing like fresh, fresh vegetables. So that's kind of our new hobby. And I'll have to admit, Debbie, she's got the green thumb, you know, so she's, sort of really knows what she's doing. I'm sort of tagging along just picking stuff because she can't pick it quick enough. So—

Oh yeah, yeah, that's awesome, it's awesome. Yeah, I, you know, uh, so I got into doing farming through Jordan as well, through Jordan Rubin. So I went in and, uh, he bought this farm and I invested in there. And so now I'm a co-owner of the farm in Tennessee, also Missouri. And so it's been, it's been really fun. So I go down to Summertown here where we've got our farm quite often. I've been there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome. Yeah.

And then, you know, you know, greenhouses are amazing. I mean, I, you know, I, I think that it's, it's pretty fun being able to grow things year round. And it is, you really can taste the difference, right?

I mean, there's— Definitely.

Pretty incredible.

Definitely.

And we had this whole craze, especially after COVID, of people starting to do more homesteading.

I know.

And I, I know, you know, you know, Carrie Underwood, Mike Fisher as well. And they've, you know, they built a couple big greenhouses a couple years ago. And so I've talked to them about some of what they're doing. But, you know, my wife Chelsea started doing sourdough. We actually bought 10 acres out in off of Vaughn and Sneed, right over in Nashville. And so we're building greenhouse and sort of mini farm and everything else there too. So it's been a really interesting trend. What do you think is maybe behind some of this? And I see a lot of Christians doing this too, a lot more Christians and people trying to buy farmland, do chickens, make sourdough bread. I mean, you know, do some of these things.

Well, that's just my humble opinion. I think there's just a lot of not so good stuff in our, food that you get at the grocery stores. It's processed. It's, um, you know, environment. I mean, I mean, I could go on and on. I mean, who knows? But, um, yeah, I just think that's why people are gravitating towards, you know, if they don't have land, that they share land or they share a garden.

Yeah.

You have a lot of communities that are doing kind of community gardens, which I think is a great thing. So I just think people are more conscious of their health and they want to just like me, I think they wanna live a long life and feel good and prosper and all of that, so.

Yeah, you know, I've heard this from a lot of just, you know, Christian leaders and pastors too. Like, it's like a lot of 'em, I think they get to a point in their career where, and a lot of times I feel like it's in their 40s or 50s, where maybe sort of a realization of, you know what, I wanna keep doing this and ministering when I'm in my 60s and 70s and 80s and 90s. And, you know, we had Don Finto in our, you know, in the Bible study we did. And, you know, he was at, I think he was 93 He did a mission trip to Iraq. Absolutely incredible. I remember I had a patient years ago, probably my best patient I've ever had. He was in his mid-late 70s. His name was John, and he was a pastor in Nolensville at a church there. And I said, hey, why are you trying to be so healthy? He said, you know, I wanna be preaching the gospel and like doing this when I'm in my 90s. So I love that sort of mindset. And it's pretty amazing, you're still doing music, you're still ministering here now. How much longer do you think you're gonna be doing that?

Well, I don't think I'll ever retire. You know, I might not be flipping and tripping at 85, you know, I mean, I want to be like Don. I mean, I just had dinner with Don. Don's mentored me for 43 years.

Wow.

And, uh, you know, I always say 3 people have changed my life: my dad, who was my hero, Billy Graham, who I was very close to, and Finto. And Finto's 96.

Wow.

And he's sharp, and I think he's going to be around for a while, you know. Um, I feel like my best. I mean, I'm 68. I'll just go on record and say I'm 68, be 69 in October. I feel great. I feel like my best work is coming.

Yeah.

You know, and so I feel energized. This is my calling. Maybe it would be different if nobody liked the music and nobody came and I'd have to find another job. You know, that's not the case. So I just kind of feel like I'm hitting into my sweet spot.

Yeah.

Like everybody kind of wants to know, you know, what am I called to do? And God, show me what that is and let me do it to the best of my ability.

That's good.

And I actually pray that every day. I kind of go, okay, God, what's— am I still supposed to be doing this? Like, what's my next assignment?

Yeah.

I can't change yesterday. I'm not guaranteed tomorrow. So just even today, who am I supposed to run into if I go to Whole Foods or I go to Walgreens? Or just let me reflect who you are to people all around me. So it's more than just music, being an artist. And, you know, I think it's also just living the life, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I had my own— this is a few years ago— I had my own personal health battle. And one of the things I experienced, I had a spine infection and didn't walk for a year.

This is about 3 years ago.

And when I was going through that, one of the biggest things I found that I feel like helped me heal— and then I started digging in the research around this and seeing just so much evidence for it— but just spending time in praise and worship. I mean, it's amazing, you know, and we see this in the Psalms. We think we see verses around sort of, you know, just around praise and gratitude and some of the healing effects. There's research about this now. I mean, is that something that you've experienced, or people have come up to you over the years saying, hey, your, your music has helped me break free or heal in some way?

Yeah, I mean, all the time. Yeah, I mean, I don't say that boasting. I mean, I just— it's just the power, the power of music. I mean, just how a 3 and a half minute song can change somebody's life is remarkable. Even an instrumental. I've had, I've had several people, matter of fact, probably in the double digits of people feel like they got healed listening to my Freedom record.

Wow.

And there's no words on freedom. You know, it's just— I always think about David playing before Saul. You know, he probably wasn't singing, how majestic is your name. He was, he was playing the harp or playing his instrument, and it just brought— it comforted Saul, you know. So the power of a melody, just incredible. And yeah, the worship thing, I mean, you know, it's just a— that's what we're made for.

Yeah.

And I love that scripture says, for the spirit of heaviness, put on the garment of praise.

Oh, wow.

So when you just feel like you're in the funk, feel like you just can't, you just go, Lord, I praise you no matter how I feel. I just praise you. 'Cause you're worthy to be praised, you know? So it's not about my emotions. I don't know why I'm feeling this way. Why do I feel depressed? Or you can go on and on and on. But Lord, I praise you. I worship you. And yeah, and he inhabits the praises of his people.

Yeah. You know, I think about the way to change our mindset or the emotions we're feeling the most quickly And I think it's music. I think it's combined with gratitude and praise. I think anytime that, you know, again, you get a song on that's uplifting, that's moving in some way, especially if it means something to you or you listen to the words and it moves you in some way, it really can change your perspective. It can change you from being depressed or anxious to peaceful and joyful in just moments, you know, so, so quickly.

I agree.

And that was something, again, when I was kind of going through, I would have a bad day, I would listen and it would be like, wow, this is, this is creating a shift for me. In a really powerful way. I also think about it like this, you know, I think when you are listening to Christian music versus other music, you know, there's something about— if anyone's ever stood and just watched the ocean waves crash and you feel the sense of sort of awe and wonder, just the bigness there. You've been in a mountain, maybe you're snow skiing, you kind of look at this vastness. I think a similar thing can happen when you are reflecting on the power of Jesus, the greatness of God, and you're sitting there sort of reflecting and music helps you do that. Yeah, it kind of— to me, it has that same sort of, uh, empowering— creates that same empowering feeling, right? I agree.

Yeah, I agree. I'm a big nature guy. I'm a big, um— like, I've always wanted— I want to be an astronaut when I was a kid, you know. I'm fascinated with space. And I mean, I think if I had a chance, I would probably go up in a rocket and come back down. I'd probably do that. Um, but I mean, I, I think what happens is we, you know, we We live in such a fast-paced society, and it's just everything's vying for our attention, you know, especially now with media and your phone. And man, I guess God, He's screaming everywhere. I mean, the rocks are crying out, you know?

Yeah.

I remember one time I was— God, this has been a decade ago. I was driving. I was sort of in this sweet little place with the Lord, and my heart was tender for some reason. I pulled up beside this— I think it was a Bradford pear. It's really close to my studio. And I pulled up and it was in full bloom and I completely had a meltdown.

Hmm.

Just looking at a tree. But I know God created the tree. And so I saw the beauty in the tree. So I'm trying to sort of, you know, even today, you know, I was looking at the news, like, turn the phone off. You don't need to look at the news and just look around, look around, because his beauty is just Amazing, you know. So I can have a worship experience looking at the stars.

Yeah, so yeah, it's so powerful. Yeah, you know, one of the prescriptions I have is when my mom— she had battled cancer twice, but the second time she had it, we really took this natural protocol and approach of healing. Of course, we changed her diet dramatically, we did a lot of things, but one of the biggest things we did is she would regularly— she had about 40 Bible verses she would just, you know, meditate on day and night. She had just worship music kind of going constantly. So anytime, especially anytime she was Not feeling in a funk, she would listen to it and it would just, it would just change her. So I think, you know, this combination of using prayer, using sort of praise together is incredibly powerful.

Yeah.

And you can share this or not share this, is sort of this question, but have you or your family, and some of this might be private so you don't feel like you need to share anything you don't, have you guys walked through any health challenges for you or family members? And if you did, was there something that you did that you felt like was very helpful in order to help the person heal? Maybe even from a praise, a prayer perspective, anything like that?

Well, I remember— I don't think Ryan would mind me saying this. He's my oldest. You know, he went through a weird season when he was young, like 8 to like 12, or maybe it could have been 9 to 12, and he had tics. He had these tics, and he would shake, and then something else would happen, and he would just You know, just out of nowhere, you know. And we thought he had Tourette's, and the doctor— he got diagnosed with Tourette's. We all were just a mess, and just— we just wouldn't believe it, you know. Took him to another doctor, he doesn't have Tourette's, you know. He just— all kids under 12, most of them have tics, you know. Uh, maybe some of them don't reveal themselves, but it was scary.

Yeah.

But we have a prayer group, and, um, that's been together for 35 years.

Oh, wow.

And, um, So a lot of those people were— I just remember we— they all came to the house and Finto was there, and we were just confident that God was going to heal Ryan, you know. And so we anointed all the doors with oil, and especially his room, spent a lot of time in there. And this is an insane story, so if you think I might be wacky, but it really did happen. So I remember we were We were all in the basement, and Linda Dionne, who's in heaven now, she was a part of the prayer group. And so she was the only one who hadn't prayed. We all had prayed there, praying for Ryan, praying for a breakthrough. And she usually has these powerful prayers. Well, she just couldn't say anything. So I touched her shoulder, and so Deb did on the other side, and electricity flew down my body. And it was— I've never experienced anything like that.

Wow.

And I started to laugh and Finto started to laugh. This is crazy. And a minute later, we can't catch our breath. And Dawn and I are on the floor laughing uncontrollably, like almost hyperventilating.

Yeah.

Well, everybody else decides to laugh with us. You know, they just thought, what's going on here? My sweet mother-in-law went and got us all water because we might have been dehydrated. But something broke in that basement and everything changed.

Wow.

Tics went away.

Wow.

Everything. Now, I can't explain that. That sounds a bit radical, but I just think it was the Holy Spirit.

Yeah.

And sort of there was just the release. And then we, you know, we all were walking out going, you know what, I think this thing's gonna be okay. And it really did all turn around. But I think it was probably the prayers of that prayer group. For years leading up, just believing that there's gonna be a breakthrough, there's gonna be a healing for him. And it happened on that night.

I love that.

Yeah.

That's so powerful.

Yeah.

Our new book, Heal Yourselves, is now available for preorder. And if you've gotten value from this podcast, we would be so grateful for you grabbing your copy directly through our own channels at healyourselvesbook.com. When you preorder with us, you're also gonna get the Cellular Peptide Guide, the Cellular Supplement Guide, the Heal Your Cells Masterclass, and 40 longevity recipes, plus an at-home bloodwork kit for only $79, our lowest price ever, with a 1-hour consultation. So you'll have the results before the book even launches. Again, that's healyourselvesbook.com, and that offer won't last long. I want to encourage you to take advantage of the offer because we're only going to do that for the next few days.

You know, I think there's a, uh, the longest health study ever done to date. It was a Harvard study, and now, now it's been— it's almost 100 years old now, and they keep tracking these metrics. And the single greatest factor for somebody living a long time was having a close-knit community, close-knit family and friends. Yeah, I mean, we're talking about more than supplements, more than exercise, more than healthy diet, right? Was that community?

Community?

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, and I remember this is— so when I first moved to Nashville, this is almost 20— actually, this is before this. This is more than 20 years ago. I had a friend who was a musician, and he told He told me that he would just, you know, you let him just go out to your farm and he would just walk around, you know? And so there's probably 100 people like that that you just let go to your farm and just spend time there. But I know that you've done this for a long time in terms of you're just very connected to people. How do you cultivate so many of these really deep, meaningful relationships?

Well, I don't always do it well, you know? You know, I actually just told Don the other night, I think I probably need a little bit more community. I'm kind of an introvert and an extrovert.

I'm kind of both.

'Cause I love being with people, but I really love being by myself.

Yeah.

So I probably need to be a little bit more intentional of this about hanging out with the prayer group guys. You know, the girls get together all the time and they pray for the husbands, you know, all the time, you know. And the guys don't do that on a regular basis like they do, and we probably should. So it's sort of one of my goals is just going, you know, I just need to go have dinner with somebody, you know. You know, I would rather just stay home and eat by myself or eat with Deb.

Yeah.

But she was out of town going, just go be with people. So, um, you know, kind of my community lately has been my, my production team working on this record that I've been working on for over a year and a half. And that's been great. A guy named Ted T and Jay Kalm. I've always wanted to work with Ted. He's a brilliant producer. So we've had a lot of great discussions. I've kind of gotten to really know him because you spend a lot of time together, you get to know— all of a sudden you got a new friend, and it's been really good. But yeah, I think you can't be a Lone Ranger, you know. That's, that's probably spells trouble, you know.

You know, one thing I was thinking— so my, I had a— my grandfather passed away a few years ago. He lived to be 96, and, you know, worked up until much— pretty much almost the day he died. I mean, really had an amazing life, and, um, And one of the things that at the funeral, um, that was so amazing is that there were so many people. I looked at this room of people and in conversations with them, and there's over 100 people, and I probably talked— I talked to a lot of people, and many of them felt like my grandfather was their best friend.

Wow.

And so like he had this amazing thing. And honestly, and you have a very similar demeanor in that, is that somebody can meet you a few times, and I feel like this with you, is that I've only met you in person really a few times, but I really feel like you know, you could be considered a close friend from the standpoint of, you know, you're just very warm, easy to connect with on these things. You're willing to serve. I mean, I asked you to come on the podcast, you're like, sure. You know, you came around, and I know you're one of the most busy people I know, or could be, right?

Yeah.

'Cause there's so many commitments. So I just wanna let you know, I just think that there's just such an amazing spirit about that, of just a willingness to be able to just connect with people and bless people. And one of the things I think I read recently, and this was, I mean, a few years ago, But, you know, I know your parents passed and you attributed a lot of things to your dad and your mom. So what are some of the things maybe they passed on to you in terms of just your, you know?

Man, I still miss them both terribly. They were the greatest parents ever. They just, they were always serving people, just always serving people. And my dad, I mean, I do things that my dad does. I mean, my mannerisms, you know, I look like my dad. I say hi to everybody. I'm like, oh, wait, that's one of my dad's. And if he didn't know who they were, he'd go, hey, old buddy. You know, he just said hi to everybody.

Yeah.

Which, you know, if you're in California or some other place, you think you're crazy.

You know what I'm saying?

Nothing against California. I got lots of friends in California. But, you know, it's just, it's not, that's not normal in today's society. But my dad was just, he was gracious to everybody. And so, and the way he loved my mom, Unconditionally. And my mom was amazing. So just, you know, I feel like I've got some big shoes to fill. And I think my dad, just the way he lived his life, showed me how to do life. He loved me. I have one sibling. He loved us so well. You know, I went through this whole prodigal thing and a drug thing. It just, oh, just was— still can't even believe it happened, you know, from '75 to '79. And I'd moved to Nashville in '78, whatever. Long story short, that he never kicked me out of the house. He never— they just loved me unconditionally. They knew I was in trouble. They probably didn't know to the extent. They just loved me.

Wow.

And I feel— and I completely believe this with every fiber of my being. I wouldn't be having this conversation with you if it hadn't been for the prayers of my mom and dad.

Oh, wow.

On their knees every night praying for their boy who was doing drugs in Nashville, Tennessee, and almost lost his life.

Wow.

So, yeah, my dad was my hero.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's so powerful. When you were going through that period of time, what helped you break through that drug addiction? Like, what was the thing that finally just caused you to experience that?

Well, I hit rock bottom, but that's what I prayed for. When I almost lost my— I had a near drug overdose thing that I almost I feel like I almost died. It's a crazy thing that happened. I've written about it in books, all the gory details. But I knew when that happened in '78, I felt like the devil was trying to take me out. And I knew because I got saved when I was 10, had a massive encounter with the Holy Spirit at 13, and to hear that the whole music was going to be a part of my life, I knew that there was an an enormous, beautiful call of God on my life. And I felt like the devil was trying to snuff it out and take me out. I really do believe that.

Yeah.

I mean, you look at him, he wants to do that to all of us.

Yeah.

The devil wants to kill and steal and destroy our lives. It's in the word.

Yeah.

So I was stuck and I was in a pit and I couldn't get out. There was no ladder. I was just stuck. And so, And my mom and dad were praying for me, but I began to pray, God, do whatever you have to do to get my attention. I mean, car wreck.

Yeah.

Uh, break my legs. I mean, just don't kill me. Just whatever it takes. And I'd never been depressed in my life. I sort of like— I mean, I wasn't the most popular guy in school. I played sports, did music, but I was always up. I was sort of like, you know, just loved being with people and I got depressed.

Hmm.

And it went through the summer of '79 and through the fall of '79. And it just like— and it finally, I went down on my floor, my linoleum floor, which I'm still gonna write a song called Linoleum Floor, for 3 and a half hours at midnight. And I probably had a nervous breakdown. And I twisted and I turned and I wept and I shook and I just, for 3 and a half hours. And about 3:15 in the morning, 3:30, I was so exhausted and I felt like Abba was laying on the floor with me with his arm around me. He says, I got you. It's gonna be okay. And I haven't been the same since that night. I was tempted the next day. I mean, I went, whoa, what was that? And I was sort of tempted to go out and party with my buddies. But then there was something. I couldn't shake what happened that night. And that next day I was going to my publishing company. Here I'm trying to write songs about Jesus and partying. It doesn't quite work. So all the songs were awful. And this guy Randy Cox came up to me, says, hey, because I kept saying, Lord, I need a way out. I need a— that was amazing. Give me some friends, do something. Yeah. And Randy says, hey, there's this— I want to talk to you about something. There's this group called Higher Ground and they're looking for a piano player. I said, I'll take the job. He said, well, you don't wanna meet him? Nope, I'll take the job. Are you sure you don't wanna meet him? Nope, I'll take the job. 'Cause I felt like that was my anchor.

Yeah.

And so I joined this group called Higher Ground, smoked my last cigarette on the way to the van. And that was, I think it was New Year's Eve of '79. And those guys nurtured me back to health spiritually for 8 months. And then that following month, I got my first songwriting contract. I met a girl named Amy Grant and started writing songs for Amy, and then finally got my own record deal. I mean, the list goes on, but I mean, the story goes on. But that's— it was rock bottom, and, um, I got rescued.

Wow. Praise God. Yeah, what an amazing story. You know, I remember I had a— not, not to that degree, but I did when I was in college have a couple years really turned away from God, and then had a similar experience of just feeling this emptiness and this hole.

Yeah.

And spending a few hours, like over a weekend, actually a whole weekend, just locked myself in my room. And I remember praying a prayer. I said, God, 'cause one of the things I felt like was I didn't have any really true deep friends. I mean, I had one in my hometown, but moved off to college and just got around the wrong group. And I remember praying, God, would you just send a flood of Christian godly men into my life?

Yeah.

And honestly, since then, and God is still doing it. I mean, I'm like, I prayed that prayer and it's like 30 years later, he just keeps doing it.

Yeah.

You know, and I found that that is the thing that helped change me the most is like, if my single biggest life lesson is probably you become who you spend time with.

I agree.

You know, and it's just like, wow. And so that has been something I'm just, I still do today. I'm constantly thinking, who am I spending time with?

Yeah.

Being really proactive with that. And I look back at my parents, they were conscious of this too. But you know, I was always like, well, why can't I hang out with this person or go over this person's house? And I mean, thank God for, you know, great parents.

Yeah.

Uh, so you mentioned Amy Grant. Who are, who are some people that, that have been sort of iron sharpens iron for you? Maybe other musicians in the industry for, again, for, for the past 30 or so years.

Well, I, I have to go back to Don Finto again. I mean, I mean, I've, I've, I've done a lot of life with Don. Um, I always say the 3 people changed— I think, I don't know if I already said this, but the 3 people who the 3 men that really changed my life was my dad, Billy Graham. I was very close to Billy, um, and he poured his life into me, especially, you know, from '94 on, you know, until he went to heaven. And, you know, I think he maybe just— I don't know, he just loved me for some reason. And we started doing youth nights together, and I did a lot of crusades with him. But, you know, he has 5 kids, I've got 5 kids, he's on the road, I'm on the road.

Yeah.

We had a lot of things in common, you know. So yeah, Finto, my dad, Billy, um, but you know, just throughout the years, just my bandmates, my— who I'm on the road with, you know. I can, I can establish a pretty quick relationship if I'm, if I'm hanging out with these people on a bus all the time.

Yeah.

You start to kind of like— you're not going to isolate yourself. I mean, sometimes you got to go to the back of the bus to, to, to recalibrate, you know, from time to time. But no, you get to know these guys and you get to know about their families and You get to have these deep conversations at night on a bus. We get into this whole thing about, what do you think about that? And what do you think about that? And we tried to avoid politics, but it would come up from time to time. But more a thing about how to walk this thing out. How do we finish strong? How do we not fall off the cliff? And then I would go back to my prayer group, of all the times that we've been together and all the tough stuff that we've gone through, you know, just like the loss of life. You know, we had some— a person who lost his wife in our prayer group. Ugh, it's awful.

Yeah.

You know, and yeah, you know, that draws us all together. And so, um, whenever there's an issue where there's a big thread text where they— where the— what do we call— well, the prayer warriors or whatever we're called, you know, there's a thread and I get something from that thread. Every other day.

Yeah.

'Cause so I know what's going on in pretty much in everybody's life in our prayer group, and it's a beautiful thing.

Yeah, you know, there's no doubt for me, again, talking about some of these things we've talked about, I think, I mean, church of course has been such a blessing and changed me, but I think there's something about growth groups or these sort of things that you're talking about, these longstanding groups that change you even more, because I think there's something about we can sit in church, and it is something everyone should be doing. Again, I'm so blessed by it, hearing an amazing sermon and teaching, spending time in praise and worship. There's also something about doing life with people.

Yeah.

You know, I think like with the way that I've learned, I think the Bible proves this out with talking so much about discipleship, but like watching the way other people treat their wives, raise their kids. You know, I've got 2 daughters now, and I've got some other couples. I don't know if you know Michael Hyatt.

Yeah.

You know, Mike's got 5 daughters. I remember when I first found out I was gonna have a daughter, I went to Michael and just said, hey, you know, I, and one of the things he told me, and I thought it was so interesting, he said, you're gonna love having daughters. He said, the boys always run off.

Right.

And the girls always stay around and are gonna take care of you and you're gonna love it.

Yeah.

And, but I've been so blessed by, and I think any growth I've had has been so much around having amazing mentors and people and watching. So there, there was a doctor that I mentored for, I mentored under, and he would let me, this is when I was in Florida in school, I would go stay at his house one night a week and then I would work as a nutritionist in his clinic. But I would stay there and be able to see how he interacted with his kids in the morning. And so his kids would wake up and, You know, big hugs. He'd connect with the family, and then they'd literally come up and they would take green shots of green juice, teaspoon of fish oil, you know, all take their supplements, do breakfast together, kisses. But for me, it was, it was just as— I mean, it was maybe more powerful than anything just seeing, oh, this is how you do it.

That's how you do it.

Yeah.

Yeah. Good. Yeah. No, it's good. I mean, actions speak louder than words, you know. And that— I remember Deb and I would have a lot of these talks about our you know, our 5 kids and pray for them. Are they gonna be okay? And we go, we can preach at them all day, but they're watching what we do.

Yeah.

They're, they're watching how we are interacting, you know. They're watching how we treat people, you know. So yeah, so that sounds like a great thing that you had to watch him do life with his family. Yeah, and we've always been family-oriented. We're big, big— we're big, big family people. I mean, all our kids fought and did all that stuff growing up. They had their little whatever. But all our kids actually really love each other.

Oh, wow.

And now we have 20 grandkids.

Oh, congratulations.

I thought we were holding at 18. We're at 20. And the grandkids love each other, you know. So there's this really cool thing happening, you know. And we just keep praying, oh God, just hedge of protection. Yeah, because the world's, you know, much of the world's a bad place. You know, and so, so far, by the grace of God, they're staying on point, which is great.

That's so great.

Yeah.

So one of the things that I, Jordan Rubin and I have talked about this quite often, we said, hey, when do you get your best ideas? And I, and you know, and I'm, I write a lot of articles and books and create a good amount of content. And so does Jordan, you know, create supplement formulas and all kinds of things. And both of us have said, I mean, I'm talking about 90% of the time, our best ideas have come And, and part of me feels like I'm excited to share this. Also, part of me feels bad about maybe I shouldn't be doing it at this time, but it's when we're at church doing praise and worship. I mean, I literally can't— it's almost like I'm spending half of praise and worship like, Chelsea's like, get off your phone. I'm like, I will, but I've got this amazing idea that I need to type out right now.

Yeah.

And same thing, like Jordan and I at points have gone to certain churches or different things together, and, and I'm looking across the thing and I see him like there. I'm like, So there is just something that, again, when we are spending time praising God and sort of in the presence, I just feel like these ideas just flow.

Yeah.

And it's been really amazing. And so that's one thing that, again, I love about your music. I love about just spending time in praise and worship. And I know it's different for everybody. I was listening to this thing with Elon Musk, and he said his first thing is he wakes up in the morning, the first thing he does is get in the shower and just thinks for an hour and come up with all his ideas.

And sings.

Well, I don't know if he sings or not. No, this is totally different. No, he just does it in the shower. Yeah, I don't think he sings. I think he just— he does it then. But, uh, I'm curious for you, how about you? Like, how do you— again, you've created so many amazing songs. Like, what sort of environment do you need to sort of get into in order to write, write your best music when you're looking back?

Well, I think— I mean, you obviously need— you know, I don't have very many great ideas when you're trying to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders and you're thinking about this and you're thinking about, oh, everything's negative and you've gotta be positive. You know, this is just my personal opinion and I can't tell you exactly why I got in these places. You know, I remember I wrote Agnus Dei. You know, I was in my basement in 1990 and it's this worship song that's been—

I love it.

It's resurfaced and all these kids think it's this new song and it's 36 years old, you know, it's whatever. But I was in my basement just having this quiet time, just quiet. And I put my hands on the piano. I felt like I was sort of, I was just having Jesus time, honestly.

Yeah.

Thanking Him. And I just put my hands on the keyboard and I started playing this melody. And I wrote this in 2 minutes. It just came out. And I'm weeping at my keyboard, just weeping in my basement playing this song. I think, I believe that He gave me the melody. He gave me the song.

Yeah.

Why did He give it to me then and not in '88 or '95? I have no idea.

Yeah.

I think there's so much that God wants to reveal to us, like some really, like, deep, deep, deep stuff that's like earth-shattering. But I think He only gives it to the deep people.

Yeah.

The quiet place, you know, the place of really abiding in this sort of, it's like a consciousness kind of thing. It's not weird. I'm just saying, just being in that thing of being in the deep place and totally, totally being surrendered to him, like on full scale.

Yeah.

I think when you abide on a deep, deep level, I personally think he gives otherworldly ideas to creative people.

It's so powerful.

To you, to me. Uh, I just, I just totally believe that.

Yeah.

Uh, I think if I was running and gunning all the time and trying to put out the fires and just sort of in this sort of non-stop chaos of just trying to keep life together, I don't think I'd be very productive.

Yeah.

You know, I wouldn't be very happy. But there's this peace, you know, there's this thing of going— I say it every day, Lord, how do I do it? How do I do it? How do I abide in you living in America and all the things that come with my job? You know, how do I sort of, you know, sort of, yes, I got to take care of this and that's a responsibility, but how do I sort of stay in this lane of just keeping my mind stayed on you?

Yeah.

He said, if you keep your mind stayed on him, he'll keep you in perfect peace. That's what it says. So I think he wants to reveal some pretty amazing stuff to deep people, and I wanna be among the deep people.

Yeah, and I think first, this is, I've loved everything you said. This is my favorite thing though. I think that there's something about being able to, and we see Jesus did this, right? He woke up early in the morning. He went just to a quiet place to pray. And I see this today. I see so many people struggling with health issues. I mean, again, I think that I mean, it's maybe more than half, I mean, of health issues are due to an emotional state of— and food's big. But I do think just this overwhelm of busyness of people have their schedule packed from the second they wake up to go to bed and through the weekend. It's just so many things. And that doesn't leave room to go deep, right? We're going to your point, very, very wide. We have social media today, you have maybe 500 friends on there, but how many of like versus—

Yeah.

You'd much better going deep with 5, I agree. And so I, I do, I do love that. And I think of any time I've had inspiration, any time I've had a meaningful idea, it's come from this time of praise and worship, or there's just a lone quiet time.

Yeah.

And creating space for that. You know, my— our— I've got a 2-year-old and 6-year-old at home. My 6-year-old, Chelsea and I have started saying that she's like, I'm bored. We're like, good. It's good to— you know, we're like, it's good to be bored, honey. This is where you can think and be creative. And, you know, um, you guys are busy. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I remember. So busy, so fun. And that's one of the things we're trying to do now is— and Chelsea and I are constantly reminding each other of like, you know, our 2-year-old is now saying words more correctly. We liked it better when she wasn't because it's so darn cute.

Right.

And just being able to just kind of, yeah, cherish this time when they just really want to just connect with you every second of the day.

Yeah.

And it's so precious. And now you're getting to do this with Grant with 20. Grandkids.

20 grandkids. Yeah, I was at our farm last night and I watched my— one of my— gosh, how old's Gabriel? Is he 8? Get baptized last night.

Oh wow.

In a horse trough. Yeah, we decided not to do the Harp of the River and we had like 30, 40, 50 people out there and it was just— and Deb had just gotten back from Indiana helping Emily, the little ones who didn't live here. And so we raced out there and just Just to watch your grandchild get baptized, you know, I ended up baptizing 2 of my kids. It just doesn't get old, yeah.

I love it, that's so good.

If you're taking handfuls of supplements, but still feeling exhausted, it means your nutrients aren't getting where they need to go. And unfortunately, conventional blood work will never catch this issue. This new test completely changes things, and my team knows exactly what to look for. I'm currently offering a simple at-home blood test that actually tests for the right things— targeted biomarkers that reveal how well you're absorbing and utilizing nutrients, along with the key markers for hormones, thyroid, inflammation, and metabolism. You also get a full hour with one of my senior health advisors to review your results and discover how you can work with the Health Institute to finally feel like yourself again. If you want to check it out and grab one before they're gone, just go to mybloodwork.com now.

You talked about the 3 people that really mentored you and poured into your life.

Yeah.

And I want to ask you the same question for each of them. Let's start with your dad.

Yeah.

What is the single biggest thing you learned from him or the best piece of advice he ever gave you?

I can't really, I mean, I probably could sit here and recollect all the things he said to me, but he spent time with me.

Yeah.

He was my baseball coach every season. Somehow he graduated to the next league and somehow he had found his way into that league to be my baseball coach. And 'cause I wanted to be a professional baseball player when I was a kid. I wasn't obviously built for it, but I had a lot of natural ability. My skills, you know, were good. And I learned that from my dad because he was a great ballplayer, a minor league ballplayer. Yeah, he threw baseball with me every single day.

Wow.

Every single day. If we weren't at the ball field, we were out on the sidewalk in front of our house. So he just spent time with me all the time.

Yeah, so good.

And then when the baseball thing didn't happen, which I thought, oh my gosh, my dad's going to be so disappointed because I made the All-Stars every year. And at 15, I didn't make the All-Stars. And that's when I felt like God wanted me to be in music. Well, then my dad becomes my quote-unquote PR agent, telling everybody how great I was all the time, which was embarrassing. Even at 18, he would say, oh, my dad. I said, Dad, you don't have to. You don't have to do that.

Yeah.

And he would say the craziest things, just like he was— he just thought I hung the moon. My mom and dad were more popular than I. I just— when I would get recognized all the time in the store, I'd see somebody would I felt like I was being stalked by somebody. I just— they want my autograph, you know. For 20 years this happened because my mom and dad ended up moving to Nashville. I get recognized and they go, you're Michael W. Smith? I went, yeah, it's nice to meet you. And she's, oh, we love your mom and dad. And they would sit there for 10 minutes.

Yeah.

Talking about my mom and dad, you know. So to back up and just say, yeah, my dad spent time with me. I watched him, how he treated people. And he thought I hung the moon. Yeah. Billy, to be able to co-labor with him on that first youth night, which was in Cleveland, Ohio, in 1994. There was 80,000 kids in Cleveland Stadium. And to be able to— it was me and DC Talk. DC Talk played, I played. And for me to be able to introduce Billy for the first youth night, which that's a whole other story I've written about. I've written about that in my latest book. There was a lot of hesitation of, we're going to get rid of the choir, we're going to have a rock concert. And I think Billy's team was not looked on favorably at all. But Billy thought, we've got to reach the next generation. But whatever, to introduce him, to watch him give one, I think, one of the best messages I've ever heard him give, and watch 10,000 kids come down.

Wow.

And accept Christ. It's a top 5 for me. And to be able to do that 2 or 3 times a year in '95 and '96 and all through, gosh, the next 10, 11, 12 years.

What'd you learn from Billy? What was the single biggest thing you thought, you know, this is—

Uh, he was on point, man. I'm telling you what. I mean, we could— we talk about family, want to know about the kids, but man, it was all just about sharing the gospel. Yeah. I mean, it's just It was all about sharing Jesus with the world.

There's this sort of singular focus of this is the—

Pretty much. And we would expand and we'd think, oh yeah, we'll think about— oh yeah, we talked about Bono because Bono came up. He's a friend of mine. He came up and visited, and I knew the Bushes. He obviously knew the Bushes. And so we'd talk a little bit about that. But, and then he would pray for me. I go, when he got— when he couldn't get out of his house, obviously being fragile, so I would just go up and take and I would just play his favorite hymns, and he would pray over me. I'd go, poof, this is like Billy Graham's laying hands on me and praying for me.

Wow.

And then the last 2 times I went, he didn't have the energy, but they put headphones on, and I would play his favorite hymns, and he would— I could hear him humming along with me. And then he couldn't pray for me, so I'm laying hands on Billy and praying for Billy. It's like, poof.

Wow.

It's like, eh, ugh. And it's just, it was rich, just rich. But he knew, and I say this with all humility, he knew that there was an amazing call of God on my life.

Yeah.

So I think he was just, every time we would sort of get back on point of what I'm called to do, you know, was to share the gospel through my music. And we talked about how powerful music was. You know, he knew that, you know, that's why he did the rock concert or whatever. That's what he called it, because we're going to pull the kids in. And we got their attention. They all came because of maybe me and DC talking, maybe later on in the years when I started getting older and maybe another younger man. But they came and then he's got— he got them.

Yeah.

Catching fish.

Yeah. Yeah.

Draw them in and then he gives the message and they respond to it. So, and then Finto. Man, just edifying me nonstop and memorizing Scripture together. Great story with Don. We walked Radnor Lake for years and years and years. We'd walk it every week and we never stopped. We just walk, walk, walk, and we talk and we pray. And then the one time, I think it was the second or third time we'd ever done it, we sat on a bench and he said, Michael, and then he started quoting something. It's almost like, what's he doing? I'm going, oh my gosh, he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn among all creation. By him all things were created, things in heaven, on earth, invisible and indivisible. And I go, oh my gosh, he's quoting Colossians. He quoted the whole book by memory, like he wrote it to me.

Wow.

The whole book. And I went, wow. Blown away. And I went, I've got to learn how to do that. So I went home that night and stayed up till 3 o'clock in the morning, and I memorized Colossians 1:9-16.

Wow.

And then I memorized Psalm 138, and I memorized Psalm 139. I memorized Romans 8, and I just started memorizing scripture. And I would walk, and Dom and I would go to Mount LeConte, and we'd walk and quote back and forth trying to memorize Psalm 139. And then I used Psalm 139. I quoted it. I can still quote it. I can still quote the whole thing for you. And I used to do it on stage, quote Psalm 139. It's powerful to the point, at one point there was somebody, a friend of mine that was, you know, girlfriend got pregnant and was gonna abort the child. And he was there and heard me quote Psalm 139 and went back to his girlfriend and said, we can't abort this child.

Wow.

So they got married and had the child and named their son after my son Ryan. So it's just all the backstories of, yeah, oh, here's what Finto did, here's what Billy did, here's what my dad did. But it's all sort of the overflow of just how they poured into my life.

Yeah.

And it's fruitful.

Yeah.

It becomes fruit and you go, gosh, I'm doing this stuff today because of what these 3 men did in my life.

Yeah.

Incredible.

Yeah, that's so incredible.

Yeah.

I mean, just such a testament to just the power, again, discipleship, right? Discipleship. And I think that, you know, so funny, 'cause I've done, my biggest focus, of course, have been in the health space. The other thing though, I've spent some time sort of coaching and mentoring other doctors and people in the health space. But one of the things that I've heard pretty frequently from people is, some people saying, oh, I want a mentor, but I don't have one or know where to get one. And I'll tell you a quick story here. So when I first moved to Nashville, I heard Dave Ramsey on, on the radio, and I thought, I want to do what he does. And so I started a health radio show modeled after Dave where people would call in and I would answer their health questions.

Yeah.

And I went up to Dave once, I said, Dave, um, and I didn't know Dave that well, but I just met him. I said, hey, would you mentor me? And he's like, Josh, I'm so honored that you asked, but no, I don't have the time.

Yeah.

I said, okay, you know, but then I was really prayerful. I was like, God, like I was, I said, I just really feel like I need somebody that's ahead of me that can really mentor me and lead me. And you know what's so crazy? A few months later I met Jordan Rubin. And Jordan Rubin's not, not, not a lot older. I mean, he's probably about 7 years older than I am.

Yeah.

And, um, but it was just amazing. I just, I just kept praying. And at first, and you know, some people said no, but Jordan was the right person.

Yeah.

You know, such a perfect relationship for me to be able to just learn from him and all the amazing things he's done. And so God's so faithful in that. But any advice for people who are saying to themselves, hey, I wanna have some sort of mentor, be discipled in some way, the best way to get that or pursue that?

You know what, I honestly think everybody needs a mentor. And I know that's easier said than done, you know? I mean, it was natural for me. Belmont Church and—

Yeah.

Don married us and we connected. It was just a natural connection. But I think there's somebody out there, honestly. And I think this is really interesting that you asked me this question because Don and I've talked about this for a long time because I feel like, you know, Don, he's like a father to the city.

Yeah.

He's a father. And I have felt like for quite some time that part of my calling is to father.

Hmm.

And I don't say, oh, I'm too young, I'm too young to father, you know, I'm still learning, you know, and I don't think— I'm definitely still learning, but I think part of my role is to mentor. And how I do that, who I do that with, I just know that I have a lot of good stuff to share, and that's the bad and the good, the good choices and the not so good choices. And I'm having these young musicians whose families are struggling, and they're in the quote-unquote Christian music business, even the country world, going, how'd you do it?

Yeah.

How'd you survive success? How is it that you're married to the same woman for almost 45 years?

Wow.

So they're asking me. So gosh, why would I not take the time and walk people through some of that. So we've started a little thing. We did our first little meeting about mentoring young couples. We had it at our house last month. Dom was there. It was amazing. It was amazing. It was amazing first meeting him. So I think it's beginning to happen, you know. But saying that, you know, if you don't have a mentor, then you just gotta then ask God to show you who that is.

Yeah.

And I think he will.

You know? Yeah.

Again, the internet is a dangerous thing, but there's so much great stuff, you know? This show, hello. You know, but just, you know, Deb's always sending me little things going, did you hear this guy? This guy from Scotland? Oh, he's incredible. And so there's these podcasts and little things that you can find snippets of that are like, you can kind of get mentored by these guys a little bit and you might not even know 'em, you know? So I think that's a good thing.

Yeah.

If you don't have a Don Finto.

Yeah.

But I think God can give you a Finto.

Yeah, I think so too. You know, I think that I've tried to balance things where there are certain people, you know, pastors, leaders that I just constantly am learning from online. You know, a few people that I've tended to follow over the years and really liked, and of course he's struggling with his health right now, but Jordan Peterson.

Yeah.

I think he's been really amazing. There's a Catholic bishop named Bishop Barron, learning from him. And then I've got, yeah, a lot of other Christian pastors and things that I watch on YouTube. And so I just have their channel And that's probably where I, where I learned. But then I think that, um, to your point, also just having somebody in person. I agree. For me, prayer was the single biggest thing I think helped me find, you know, finding a mentor, but also me pursuing it myself, like going to church, joining growth groups, like actually, 'cause I think sometimes it's like we wait for, we wanna sit back, but I think there's something else about us actually pursuing.

Yeah.

One other thing I'll say, and I know that you're like this, is at any time I've had a mentor who's been willing to pour into me. I try and absolutely surrender. And of course, with a strong moral conscience of, of with this in terms of, you know, I'm not listening to everything somebody says. I'm walking with the Holy Spirit in this, but trying to like, if they are giving me advice, I'm following it.

Yeah.

You know, I'm really taking action and going out of my way. 'Cause you know, anytime I've given anybody advice, if they go and take action with the advice I give them, I just wanna keep pouring into them. Right, versus if I've given plenty of people advice over the years, and it's like, well, they don't do it. They don't do it, and I don't want to, you know, and so I think that's just an important thing too that you are surrendered and coachable and a good disciple if God, you know, sends that person to you.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree.

So one thing I just picked up from you is that, you know, I know you're generally pretty healthy. You know, we talked about you've got a greenhouse. You've got chickens.

Yeah.

I mean, that's, that's fantastic. You and your, your family, your son and family. But also, I think you've got some— maybe there's some good health habits. Again, you're 68. You said you want to be doing this in your 80s and 90s. What are some of your just natural rhythms and, and habits you have that, that keep you healthy?

Yeah, well, I try to keep moving. Um, I swim every morning.

Really?

I was swimming at 6:30 this morning.

Wow.

I'm not a great swimmer. You know, I just kick my legs and side strokes and swim on my back. And I try to just stay in there for 30 minutes and just, that's sort of, and it kind of, it's kind of my, it's kind of my God time. You know, I kind of love, I put my earplugs in. You kind of feel like you're in a spaceship, you're in outer space a little bit. 'Cause you, it's weird when you have really good plugs in your ears. And so you're in the water.

Yeah.

And there's something about being in the water and there's something about, God, here I am. Lord, have mercy on me. Oh God, according to your steadfast love, according to your great compassion, blot out my many transgressions. I just start quoting all the, The great prayer scriptures that I've got embedded in my heart and head. And then I usually come out, sometimes I get in the hot tub and stretch, you know, and then I water the flowers. I would just stay active. And then the first thing I do normally is I get to do some lemon juice.

Yeah.

And it's either lemon juice with some olive oil and I'll just take that, or it's lemon juice and apple cider vinegar and a little cayenne.

Yeah.

And just, and that, woo, that kind of wakes you up a little bit, you know? And then I usually try to sit and just sit on the swing and just try to take the word and just at least have just, even if it's just 5 minutes, you know, just sort of start the day. And then I'll figure out what I'm gonna eat. And it's either eggs, I eat a lot of eggs.

Yeah.

Every other day, you know, a little cottage cheese with the eggs. And I love iron cornbread.

Oh, so good.

That's the best.

Oh yeah.

The best. Um, if it's not that, it's yogurt. And, you know, and do pumpkin seeds every morning. I've had a, uh, when you talked about health issues earlier, I had a big health scare 2 years ago. I had parasites. And as much as I travel all around the world—

Oh yeah.

Oh, it was awful.

Yeah.

It was awful. And got healed by a natural doctor in College Grove, Tennessee. And But I'm always conscious that— and I love sushi, and, uh, so I don't eat much sushi anymore.

Yeah.

But I have to be really careful. But pumpkin seeds every morning, yogurt, uh, and then lots of salads, lots of fish. Uh, I'm not a vegetarian, so I do chicken, you know, but it's all, all natural stuff.

Yeah.

And then, like, as I said earlier, a lot of times it's just a lot of green beans and squash and zucchini, and Deb gets creative with You know, we'll have some turkey and she'll get creative with it and do something fun. A lot of guacamole, avocado. Yeah, I'm trying to gain a little weight because I'm a little thin, so I'm just trying to put on just a little bit of weight. Jordan's helping me with that.

Nice.

Yeah, and then try not to, like, you know, you know, try not to eat a lot at night.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, we've just been taught, oh, we were gonna have a big dinner.

Yeah.

You have breakfast, have lunch, oh, we have a big dinner. I'm not really, I don't think that, 'cause I don't feel good when I wake up the next day if I eat something heavy. And I'm gonna say heavy, even just a lot of food.

Yeah.

So I'm trying to do better at that. And then, you know, I look at my habits in the past, pizzas after the show and all that stuff. Those days are over.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

My weakness is probably chips and salsa 'cause I love salsa and I love chips. And so we're on chips with avocado oil. That's a little better.

There you go.

You know, uh, I'm back on raw milk, which I thought I had some issue with, you know, with milk, but I— so far I think it's okay.

Okay.

So, um, but it's pretty simple, you know, and just— I don't, I don't eat out a lot.

Yeah.

Because I don't know what they're cooking with in the kitchen.

Yeah.

So that's a big deal. Seed oils and all that sort of thing, you know. So it's a lot of stuff that I'm learning, and Deb is— she's a great student of all that, you know. So she, she knows even more than I do. So it's great to have a wife that knows how to make the right things for both of us.

Oh yeah, I'm impressed. Yeah, I mean, you're swimming, you're doing your lemon juice water in the morning, you're doing olive oil, you're doing a lot of healthy plants and protein, and Uh, that's good. Wow, I'm really impressed.

Trying to stay up, trying to stay awake.

And then just staying active. Yeah, that's, it's so good. And I think there's also something about you've got great community, you love what you got, a purpose, you know. I mean, these are things that really are important for longevity and health. And, and you've got a great marriage. So we were just saying, so you've been married as long as I've been alive. Yeah, uh, with that, for 44 years going on 45 here. And, and what would you attribute to having such a strong marriage for that long for? Or if there's other couples or people hearing, you know, I want to have a really deep, meaningful marriage. Yeah, yeah.

Well, first of all, I'm married way over my head, and she's, she's a godly woman. She's godly. This blows my mind. Um, I think probably— I mean, I say this a lot in interviews when I talk about this, but it's simple, but It's just communication.

Yeah.

And what happens to couples a lot of times is they have arguments and they have difference of opinions and they fight. And it's okay to have an argument every once in a while if you disagree, but they take offense and then they stop talking and then the wound festers and then the gap gets wider.

Yeah.

And then you're trying to recover. And I just said, we can't do that. So I just got into the habit, even if like, We disagreed about something and it was her fault, maybe that I thought was her fault, I would just say it's my fault.

Yeah.

Because I just want everything to be okay.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't want to let the sun go down on my anger, you know.

Yeah.

But it's always been communication, communication, communication. And then with the kind of work that I'm in, which is the— you know, it's— gosh, I got an extraordinary life, um, to be able to get to do what I get to do. But it's a dangerous one because it's like, I'm this celebrity. I hate that word. I've— I try to downplay it as much as I can, but everybody tells you how great you are all the time.

Yeah.

You know, oh, you changed my life. And I love that. Thank you, God. But, you know, if you just— you just keep, keep going, all of a sudden you start believing your press, and then all of a sudden you lose your way, and, and then you lose your marriage. And so I remember Deb and I, when this whole pop thing took off and places in the world. And that was kind of a— that was maybe the toughest time of our marriage because I was on all the talk shows and, you know, all these ladies were throwing themselves at me. I'd always have a team around me. And Deb's home, you know, with 4 kids at that point and nursing one. And I'm on Jay Leno and, you know, it's just—

Yeah.

It was a little tough, but we knew— I remember us having this big conversation going, you know what, there's There's probably, if you look at the stats, there's probably a better chance of us being a casualty than not. So we have to determine that we're not gonna be a casualty.

Yeah.

And we are not gonna lose our marriage.

Yeah.

So we did everything in our power to protect that.

Yeah.

And here we are.

Yeah. I mean, I mean, we've seen this obviously in recent years more than I feel like more than ever in terms of just, you know, pastors and churches and musicians just, you know, just falling, you know?

Yeah.

Do you have any, I guess, any thoughts about that in terms of just maybe the root of that, of maybe being just lackadaisical or not being as focused as you guys were on sort of just protecting that, you know? Any thoughts there?

Yeah, I just think that, yeah, especially leaders, but just everybody who's trying to walk this walk and people are falling and You can't be a Lone Ranger and you just— yeah, you, yeah, you just, you really, really, really, my opinion, you have to fight for it, man.

Yeah.

You gotta fight for it. I even say, you know, if you don't fight for it, you're gonna go down.

Yeah, yeah.

You will go down.

Yeah.

Um, so you, so whatever means possible, and if that's just Daily accountability to somebody, having a group of people. Who you hanging out with? If you got a guy, you know, that's taken a dive and fallen, he more than likely didn't have a very good community.

That's right.

And he wasn't honest.

That's right.

And so whoever that team is, you've either lied to them, or hopefully that community of people would go, bro, you're not being on the up and up with us. Yeah, you know, you kind of start to see through it a little bit. So you just got to fight for it. You got to fight for it.

Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing you said there with fighting for it though, I think is so important is that— and I think that this has happened maybe in Protestant churches even more and more. There's been more fractioning because there's so many denominations now. And so there's a lot of churches that are— they just kind of stand by themselves. Like, that pastor does not have any mentorship, doesn't have the community around. There's no accountability.

Yeah, and it's the hardest job in the world.

Yeah.

I mean, I did it for 2 years with New River, and I fell in love with the flock. I fell in love with people.

I go, whoa.

It just was, well, it was tough for me because I'm from the mindset of going, can we not just love God and love people?

Yeah.

And a lot of people in the congregation who, wanted to bitch and moan or whatever, you know, and they always had a complaint and just kind of, oh, that would, that would wear me out, you know, because I thought we got so many important things to do. We got to bring kingdom down to earth.

Yeah.

And all that stuff. But yeah, it's, um, thankfully there's a lot of great ministries out there. I know several of them. I've supported some of them that are ministering to pastors, you know, just, just a a wide thing. I know it's a bunch of 'em in America that are just ministering to burned-out pastors, 'cause it's a hard job.

It is.

A hard job.

Yeah, well, and if you think, you know, if you think of the strategy of, you know, of Satan, it's, hey, you know, let's go after the leader, right? 'Cause it's gonna affect everyone beneath too. And so I think there's a bigger target there.

And I'll say one other thing about that too, and you might disagree, and your viewers might disagree. I'm not sure we do church right.

I agree, yeah.

So I always go back and look at Acts, you know, what all happened there. How did all that go down and how they took care of the poor and took care of each other? And I'm from the mindset of, yeah, you gotta have a pastor, he's gotta bring the word, but it's life groups, people doing life groups and people walking with each other instead of— I'm not a big, big, big church guy. fan, you know, but I know there's great things happening in big congregations, but I'm kind of of the mindset, if it gets so big, you start another fellowship.

Yeah.

Start another fellowship and don't lose the community. So when you do have a large congregation, you really do have to fight for community. So you gotta have home groups, you know? So again, I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus 'cause I don't know everything. I'm just, I just think that the mentality of what we all think a pastor should be. I'm not totally convinced that's what God's plan is.

Well, I think the other thing is when you look at the early church, and I think that this sort of example could be used in almost anything, you know, at some point, like when I, before I started practicing, is I sat in a classroom.

Yeah.

And I learned some things.

Yeah.

But you can't stop there.

Yeah.

When I was in practice, I learned 10 times more than when I was in school.

Yeah.

10 times more. And I also became, you know, way more effective.

Right.

And so, I think that's sort of the model today. It's we're sitting, we're learning, this sort of Western civilization of we're just going to learn and accumulate information, but versus the priority is, well, now you're graduating or now it's applying it, right? And so, we see that in Acts, right? It's we're taking care of the poor, we're serving them, we're doing that. And so, I just think that we've kind of made the education part and the entertainment part the bigger pieces versus the others. And, it's just become very I totally agree.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and that's one of the things that's, again, I've been so blessed to be able to just be around some amazing mentors and people that have allowed me to, I think, grow in that way and be sharpened that way. So again, home groups to me, or being able to have those Bible studies is so valuable. And then just going out and serving, utilizing our gifts for God. All right, 2 more things. One, you know, if there are people listening and maybe they've gone to church some, they consider themselves Christians or non-Christians, but they're saying to themselves like, I want more than that.

Yeah.

And for me, and I know you, it's— there's been a walking with Jesus, this deep intimate connection. How can people cultivate that real relationship with Jesus? Like, I remember my grandfather, he would always tell me, he taught me to pray really, and he would say, you know, Jesus is here with you. Like, he's sitting on the bed, like, he's here with you right now. He's holding your hand. He said he's here. And I think that was really good for me. And also think of it as this, a relationship, just like we have a relationship going deep in that way. Like, But what is your best advice for people who want more and they want to build a true relationship with Jesus?

Yeah, I just think you have to declare the promises of God over you on a daily basis. I mean, Satan wants to accuse you. He wants to take you down. He wants to tell you you're not this and you're not that. Look what you did. You know, you start to believe that, oh, I don't measure up. I'm a lost cause. I can't ever get it together. I do the things I don't wanna do. Like Paul says, the things I don't wanna do, I do. And you start beating yourself up. And if you get in that sort of thing, you can't climb out of that. I mean, if you have to speak life over yourself, and I've got all these promises of God thing that I love, that I go to all the time, that who I am in Christ and who I am. And then I heard Don the other day say, this is, gosh, 'cause it would be what I would—

Yeah.

I say this because I saw a little clip from Greg Laurie interviewing Chuck Swindoll. So great. You know, if you had to preach your last sermon, what would it be? And Chuck just, you know, that exuberant, you know, big smile. I talk about the grace of God. I mean, this is so great. I love that guy. But, you know, the whole thing of just— Don was painting the picture in Romans 3 of, oh my gosh, it's depressing. And oh gosh, we're, you know, we're just— we're doomed. But, but What happens? God knew that we couldn't do it. He knew we couldn't do it. He knew we couldn't do it, so he made a way.

Yeah.

He made a way. And so those who believe, those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, he will, by faith, he will credit you with righteousness. So if you believe, then I'm righteous. I mean, he looks at me like there's a white sheet right over my head. He doesn't see my— he doesn't see the stuff. He doesn't— he sees me as righteous. And if we can say, wow, I mean, and Don would say, man, go wallow in it for a while. He said, that's the best gospel that anybody could ever preach for the rest of their lives.

Yeah.

And that's what the world needs to hear. And that's what we're supposed to do, preach the gospel to every continent, to all peoples. And it's simple. You know, it's simple. But if you can get— if you can find those scriptures where that's one— there's many, but I love that one. By faith, if you have faith and believe on him, he's just— he's gonna give you righteousness. So you're righteous. The end of story.

Yeah.

That's extraordinary to me. Absolutely extraordinary to me. And that's why I get up every day, and that's why I can put one foot in front of the other. And going, I'm destined for greatness. Not because of my gifts, not because I'm Michael W. Smith, it has nothing to do with it. I'm destined for greatness because I know who I am and I'm a child of God and I'm righteous. In process, like we all are. But when you get in that mindset, it's a game changer.

I love that. I love that. It's so good. I think that, You know, one of the things that happens is when you, to your point, when you embrace Jesus as your Lord and Savior now and start building this relationship with him, that now, I mean, your calling goes from 0 to 100. I mean, you know, your purpose, your mission, the meaning of your life.

Yeah.

Everything changes that radically. And so the more that you realize that, how much you're loved and how much responsibility now you have to go out and change the world, it is so powerful knowing what it means to be a child of God. You've got so many things going on. You've done so much, but you've got a lot more coming up. What are you most excited about right now?

You know, I'm excited about the new record. You know, this is my 37th album. Believe it or not, this is insane. I love that I'm, I'm creating again. You know, I've been working on a symphony for 10 years. I would love to finish that. You know, the acting thing comes up, but I don't, you know, I'm not— I don't want to do that unless I find a great script, you know. And, um, But I'm really having fun just creating. And to be able to do it as long as I have, there's not— and I say this with, with so much gratefulness in my heart— there's not too many people get to do it as long as I have.

Yeah.

You know, usually you have a 10-year and then, and then you're done, or a 5-year. I mean, if you look, there's not— the list is pretty short.

Yeah.

And this is my 43rd year of doing this. But having fun with Ted, and he's pushing me, and I'll go into the— get on this upright piano, and I'll just start writing stuff. And Ted's going, oh my gosh, what is that? What is that? Hit record. You know, it's just like you get around creative people and it feeds you. And all of a sudden I'm writing stuff going, oh my gosh, I have never written a song like this in my entire life, and I love it.

Wow.

So to me, You can't try to be somebody else. And I love what all these other people are doing. I love what Forrest Frank's doing. I mean, golly, that guy's just— he's out there sharing gospel, thousands of people getting saved every night, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing, you know. So there's all these great— but I'm not Forrest Frank. I don't— we don't need another Bono. We don't need another Paul McCartney. I'm just— I'm me. And I remember— and I'll end here saying this— when I was wrestling with what do I write, and I remember Kyle Lee, the producer I've worked with in the past, who I loved, very talented guy. He said, you know what, you need to make a record for yourself. Which he was saying, you need to make a record that you love. And more than likely, if you love it, there's probably a better chance than not that other people will love it as well. So to me, when you write something that just makes you come alive—

Yeah.

It doesn't get any better than that. And it's so fulfilling and you're so excited. And even if it doesn't connect, Maybe that's okay.

Yeah.

And some songs maybe are just, maybe some songs are just written for God.

Yeah.

An audience of one. Maybe it's just, maybe nobody will hear this melody that I wrote. It's an instrumental. Maybe it'll never see the light of day. But sometimes I feel like God's saying, well done.

Yeah.

That's good stuff.

There's a Bible verse about it. Whatever you do, do unto the Lord. I love it.

Do it unto the Lord. That's what I'm trying to do on a daily basis, that you've been given this gift. It's a great responsibility. What are you gonna do with it? You're just gonna bury it? I'm not gonna bury it. I'm gonna— as long as there's creativity coming from heaven. And I say that in a weird way. I heard somebody the other day going, you know, played some song and some guys go, oh yeah, it's all him. Somebody said, It wasn't that great, you know? So I'm always careful to say, it's all him. You know, you have to— one of my greatest 2 things, and maybe I'll end here, Yeah. 2 of my greatest things that I would love to do in life is I'd love to be able to peek into the window of heaven and just hear just 5 seconds of what's going on up there and bring that down. That would be awesome, you know? And then the other thing And this is on a personal note, and I think I'm almost there, I'm getting there. I pray that I'll never, ever, ever be offended by anyone ever again. And would that just be the most freeing place, that you don't really care what people think about you?

Yeah.

So I'm getting there.

That's so good. It's a book I read years ago, I think it was called When God Is Big and People Are Small, but sort of that perspective of that's what you care about is, you know, God, you know he's looking down on you, you know Jesus is here with us, and that you're making him proud, your heavenly Father proud, and that's what matters most. I love that perspective. It's so powerful. Well, Michael, thanks so much for coming on today.

Thank you.

I mean, I've been so blessed. I've learned so much. I've been just convicted in terms of just continuing to delve deeper and memorize scripture and just continue to be better in life. And I think there's something else about your life that is, I mean this in the most positive way possible, there's some complexity, but there's also simplicity of trying to say yes to the things that matter most, really focusing on God, focusing on family, focusing on your gifts and mission, and not a lot else, you know? And so focusing on those things, and I love that. I just want to say, hey, thanks everybody for listening and tuning in here to the Dr. Axe Show. I hope you've been as blessed with this conversation as I have with Michael W. Smith. I want to encourage you, go out and check out his albums. Actually, let me ask you that quick. Where could people find, you know, I guess probably today where they go, Spotify, iTunes, search Michael W. Smith.

Yeah, michaelwsmith.com. You can kind of find it all there. But yeah, Spotify, Apple, who knows? I probably don't even know half of them.

You can follow on social media too, a great place to follow him. And if you're not subscribed yet to the podcast, make sure you subscribe as well and share this. You know, there are so many people, by the way, I'm gonna be going and sharing this. My mom's gonna love this. I'm gonna be sharing this with my mom and family members because they've been big fans of you, Michael, for years. And so think about one person you could share this with, share it with them on text message or social media, or maybe a group chat if you're on a group chat with people, might bless somebody. And again, thanks for subscribing. And thanks so much for listening here. And hey, if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment, let us know.

What is your favorite Michael W. Smith song?

Uh, what is something that he shared with you today that you're gonna walk away with, a piece of wisdom that Michael shared? We'd love to hear from you as well. So thanks so much for tuning in. We'll see you on the next episode.