Microbiome Transformation Killing Parasites, Candida and More | The Dr. Axe Show Podcast Episode 58

We want you guys to know that if you eat well and you take proper nutrition, you raise your immune system up to help fight that because your body's supposed to fight off and kill off any parasite you ingest by having high amounts of acid in the stomach. If you have leaky gut, if you have a damaged lining from eating too much carbs, bad carbs, and it just creates inflammation in the lining, the lining gets what? Skewed. You will not dissolve the eggs or the larvae or the worms. And the thing is, God designed it for you to be able to do that.

Hey, everybody. Dr. Axe here along with my good friend, Dr. Christopher Motley. And as you guys know, Dr. Motley is a regular guest here on the program. We're going to talk about transforming the health of your gut microbiome, and we're going to talk about killing off— if you have parasites, Candida, yeast, bacteria overgrowth, this actually can affect— be correlated with things like Lyme disease as well and all types of different types of infections, including viral infections like Epstein-Barr. So, we're going to talk about your gut microbiome and all these microorganisms that can affect our body and our health. And so anyways, hey, Dr. Chris, how you doing?

I'm doing well, my friend. How are you? Thanks for having me, brother. This is a fun time. This is great.

It is. So, I love every time we get to talk. And one of the things I always share with the audience here is I love talking to you and you're a regular guest here because you are one of the most knowledgeable doctors I know. And sometimes it's difficult for me to talk to doctors about Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, because they're not trained in it. One of the things I appreciate about you is you're just so deeply trained in Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, Greek medicine, biblical medicine, these ancient forms of medicine that have been around thousands of years. And also, you currently run a practice. I know you've got your virtual clinic. You also have your in-person clinic in Nashville where you take care of patients. And I know you get great results with autoimmune disease and Lyme disease and parasitic infections and all these different problems. So we're going to talk about this today. The first thing I want to say though, you know, there might be people listening who are saying, I don't know if I've had this issue in the past or if I have it now. What are some of the biggest warning signs that people may have an issue with their microbiome or have an issue like a parasite infection, Candida, and some of those other issues that are microorganism related?

Yeah, brother, I think that when an individual comes in and they see us, they will have times where they'll say, well, I'm chronically fatigued. And yes, fatigue is can be common to most people. But I normally find that individuals with brain fog, people who literally are sharp people, they say, I can think really well, but my memory is going. I can't think quickly. I feel like I'm seeing through a cloud. That alongside every time they eat, that they bloat up. Anytime you eat and you start to go, man, I feel so bloated and tight. And this week, I've already had about 5 or 6 individuals that will say, I eat and I look like I'm pregnant. And when I find that people are bloated and they have every time they eat, every time they have brain fog, and if your joints start to have that ache, like literally all my joints ache, and we know in Chinese medicine, I have to inform them, when the liver is injured or imbalanced, your joints are gonna hurt. Those are 3 big signs for me. And sometimes people are not that hungry, but they always say, I'm losing a little bit of weight, or I'm consistently hungry. That's when I know parasites are involved or yeast.

Yeah, it's good. So, one of those things, the first thing you mentioned there was that brain fog. This is something that I think a lot of people get is brain fog. And so, the 2 things, now, you said quite a few things, but a few things here, brain fog and bloating.

Yes.

Those are definitely, and I saw the same thing when I used to run my clinic, those were the 2 things. It was brain fog and bloating. And the reason is, for everyone listening, is there is this gut-brain connection. that we're talking about here. So, when you have issues in your gut microbiome, what happens is it's connected to that condition that we've talked about, leaky gut syndrome, where you start to have proteins— and not just proteins, here's the other thing. You can have viruses, bacteria, yeast, parasites leak through your gut, get into your bloodstream, and then circulate and affect the brain and affect the liver and affect all these different areas of your body. So, Chris, let's talk about that a little bit. What are some of the most common So, we talked about the brain here, one of the first things we referenced, and I want to come back to this. But what are some of the organ systems that you find tend to be the most affected when somebody starts getting that permeability, that leaky gut, and then they have viruses that go to different areas? What are some of the organs that tend to be the most affected?

Wow, definitely. When we first talk about leaky gut, we know we're talking about small intestine. And many times in Chinese medicine, we do a lot of kinesiology at the office. I'll find that even the heart reflex will show up when people have lightheaded, they don't feel like they're getting enough blood. Blood flow to their brain. One of the main indicators, and we've talked about this, Doc, whenever you find the bladder meridian on the back, in the upper back, it has association with the heart and the circulation. So when I find that the upper back is consistently tight, people have a hard time getting their shoulders to relax, that portion followed in, I'll go in and that will always be heart, small intestine. Both fire elements usually are always associated. So I find people have really sore quads, really sore abdominal, and then the upper back.

Yeah.

Also, large intestine and kidneys, like you just said. Whenever I find huge kidney indicators— and in Chinese medicine, we always look at the small kidney alarm points— and when I find tenderness in those areas, I find that the body, like you just said, when it's going— pushing it out of the liver, the body's so overwhelmed with parasites or yeast or fungus in that leaky gut syndrome, the body will do what? Try to catch the toxins as well as it can and then convert it to water soluble in the liver. And if it can't, it pushes it back out in the blood, goes to your brain, gives you the—

Brain fog.

leaky brain feeling, the fog, and then the kidneys are trying to kick in and try to help you out. So anytime a person has leaky gut, sometimes I find that their kidneys show first. So I'll say this, large intestine will show, the heart, and then the kidneys. So I find those 3 are big ones for me.

Yeah, it's a good point too, because as you mentioned before, that kidney and that small— or the heart and small intestine meridian, those are, those are one or very closely related in Chinese medicine. So you're talking about Because think about how interesting this is. So, because your heart is associated oftentimes with your blood because it pumps the blood, but what's the first thing that happens when— what's the first thing when something leaks somewhere out of the small intestine? It leaks into the blood, right?

Yes.

So, there's that absolute deep connection between those 2 organ systems in Chinese medicine, the blood, the small intestine, because if one is damaged, it then affects— and this is one of the things I just want to encourage everyone to remember. This is how this works. This is what the difference is between these, what we call holistic or natural or Eastern medicine, is they looked at the body and how different organ systems affect another organ system. And so, if your liver is actually affected or damaged, it can affect your digestive system or it can affect your heart or your brain, right? So, we know that a certain organ system being affected, then now, if it gets bad enough, affects another organ system. We see this a lot in thyroid, right, Dr. Kurtz?

Yeah.

us is that when somebody has hypothyroidism, it's rarely the thyroid. It's another organ system like the digestive system or the adrenals or something else that's affecting it. So, that's what's going on here is what you're saying is, hey, we've got— again, we have an issue where these viruses now are getting to different organs. So, you mentioned the kidneys.

Uh-huh.

Now, what are some of those symptoms? You touched on it, but just a little bit more. What are some of the biggest symptoms that show up when somebody has issues related to microorganisms in the kidneys. And what do you see? Do you see where it tends to be different types of microorganisms affect different— tend to be attracted or affect different organs more often than not? So, for instance, if somebody has yeast, what does that affect versus a parasite? What organ system does that most affect versus Lyme or a virus? Let's break those down individually and talk about which organ systems are most affected. And then I want to get into treatment. We'll talk about herbs and, you know, and—

Mm-hmm.

And superfoods and all that stuff too.

That's great, brother. I think that when you talk about the kidneys and where the kidneys get involved, some of the main things that I know we've seen in practice is individuals who literally get so tired in the afternoon. You know, the people say, oh, I'm just tired, I need an extra cup of coffee. When an individual comes in from 3 to 7, we know that's kidney and bladder time. When those kidneys are fatigued from infections— and they could be infections, we'll go through what can be getting into them— but like staph or strep, Even parasitic infections. Individuals always say, I'm getting that afternoon lull. I gotta have the pick-me-up. And then you ask them, hey, do you ever have to get up in the middle of the night and urinate a lot? And I guarantee you, 90% of them are like, yes, I do. And then you look back in their history of emotion, and you can find out if them or their parents were fearful people, people who lived in fear. Do you have nightmares a lot? When that happens, I know that a person's probably having the effect of a kidney infection. And they say, can a kidney infection cause all those things? Yes, it can. And I love the way you described it, Doc. When you have the Chinese Ori cycle, that circadian rhythm cycle, we see how one organ leads into the other. And you'll see that kidney and bladder is directly, basically preceded by stomach and spleen. And so what happens is you'll see how organ systems start to flow into each other. And in my mind, what I try to do every day is try to find the connect the dots. So I'll say something like, oh, this kidney point is inflamed. The spleen point's inflamed. Then I start to make the connection. I'm like, they really didn't have a kidney problem. They probably had a problem with their spleen, the lymph system. Something was in their lymph system, and their body's trying to cleanse it out through their kidneys. That's how in the office we have— I'm thankful we have good success because it is a matter of stacking information, going back. In Chinese medicine, we know this is the first symptom. Where does it connect? Where is it in that cycle?

Yeah.

And when we talk about different infections in the kidneys, my brother, I always find strep. Strep. If you have strep, you're going to find that in the kidneys, or staph, sometimes C. diff. And so you'll find Clostridium there. When we talk about parasites, oh my goodness, small intestine, even the heart. The heart will show a lot of parasites in the large intestine. So I find small intestine, large intestine, and heart. And people say, what are the symptoms? Again, the bloating, excess gas. Heart flutters, patterning of the heart. They say, my chest is tight randomly. I don't know why. At night it starts to get— where I get chest tightness. Looking for parasites. When we talk about yeast, yeast always follows other infections. We were talking about the other day where if you have an infection, guys, and you have viruses— let's just say you have Epstein-Barr virus or Lyme. When they give off toxins, God did put some yeast in our bodies to help clean up the situation. They're there to eat up some of the acids in a good way.

Mm-hmm.

But when we feed them, they overgrow. So you'll find them in many places. I find them in small intestine, bladder quite a bit. I find them also in the kidneys, heart, I mean, in the lungs. I know there's a plethora of places you'll find yeast. Yeast is one of those universal. I can find them anywhere. So I'm not surprised when people have yeast showing up in different organs. But I love to say viruses— oh, this is a good one. Viruses I like to find in the thyroid. I find a lot of viruses in the thyroid, a lot in the adenoids, and in the tonsils. So individuals that come in with Hashimoto's and they have the autoimmune, the leaky gut, and the thyroid indicators keep showing up, most of the time, I'm saying 90% of the time, you're gonna find something like a rubella virus, you're gonna find something like Epstein-Barr, or the symptoms of that, and then we can send them off to get tested if they have that. But viruses love the thyroid, and I find, of course, we're talking about the liver. The liver is a huge ground for viruses.

Yeah.

So whenever I find those indicators, I find a lot. And lately I've been reading reports, and I find it in the office, I, I know that the liver cleans out parasites, but usually I usually find them in the digestive tract within the intestines. But man, I've been reading more reports and seeing in my office where the liver and the gallbladder house a lot of parasites as well. I know it's a lot of information, guys, but these things house in these organs and the relationship can get skewed through the cycle of energy if any of these things are infected by these infections.

So let's talk about this. So somebody is having Brain fog, or somebody is having bloating, where do they start and what do you recommend? I mean, I know obviously some people can see a practitioner like yourself or someone else and they can help them. Let's say somebody is saying, hey, I do want to start to do some things on my own. Where do you recommend they start? What are some things that people can do? Let's start with the brain fog. How would somebody— what do you recommend somebody starts to do? If they do have that brain fog?

I definitely just— I just tell the patients or anybody that's calling in, my recommendation or suggestion is go ahead and try glutamine or butyric acid. And you can find glutamine in a powder form, you can find it in capsule form. It's an amino acid that's been shown to go in and tighten those extra large junctions or the holes that are in the leaky gut. So what I'll do is I'll say, hey, try this, try glutamine, try a teaspoon in water on an empty stomach every day. And the reason it helps your brain fog is Glutamine is one of the top absorbers of ammonia. When you have Lyme disease or bacteria or yeast, it'll give off organic acids and ammonia. And you'll find that butyric acid as well. Butyric acid is a subsidiary of raw butter. It's actually from cows. And those can go in and soak up the ammonia. So when I have a patient with bad Lyme or parasites, say let's do glutamine, heal your gut up, but also get the brain fog out. Those are 2 simple things.

Yeah, I love it. That's great advice. So again, if you've got brain fog, And that glutamine, so as Dr. Chris said, does 2 things. One, it helps repair that gut lining. And the other thing is it helps with the ammonia. Okay, so that's— I think that's 2 things that are really important there. If you have the bloat or the brain fog, as we're talking about, is it's going to stop some of the stuff leaking through, then affecting the brain. The other thing I would recommend is doing just general something like a bone broth powder or collagen powder along with glutamine.

Mm-hmm.

So, I think coupling those together is great, as Dr. Chris is talking about, for any type of brain fog. The other thing I think people just need to be careful of, just the overconsumption of carbohydrates. What happens is, because a lot of times with this brain fog, there's an issue with Candida there in the gut as well.

Mm-hmm.

And the last thing you want to do is continue to feed that, or those microbes are going to continue to kick out that ammonia and some of the other things. I think just cutting the carbs, doing pumpkin, doing cooked vegetables, organic meat, that sort of thing, I think is good. But lots of cooked vegetables, things like pumpkin, is going to be good. What are some of the other foods you like, Chris, for if somebody is having that, you know, those issues with brain fog?

I really try to reduce the amount of ammonia release because what the body will do is If you have too many— if you have too many amino acids, like animal-based proteins per se, like if you eat too much beef at one time or too much bison, the body can shunt some of that protein and make urea or ammonia and shunt it into the urea cycle. So I'm saying with things, I tell them reduce the sugars, like you said, reduce the carbs, increase your green leafy vegetables, do some juicing to get more micronutrients like minerals into it, and then In a way, reduce the amount of high animal proteins just for a bit to see if that starts to reduce the ammonia in the brain. When you talk about collagen, I do ask my patients, I say, if you have the brain fog, I usually tell them do leafy greens, juice that, and also do some forms of collagen, of course, to help reduce that. Now, in Korean culture, some people would say like, do you eat too many fermented foods? I was like, fermented foods are great, I get that. But sometimes with ammonia, if you have too much sulfur, which is a good thing in some individuals, but Genetically, some people can't break out— break down sulfur very well. Sometimes I say don't do too many fermented foods at once or too many animal proteins, reduce that. But again, green leafy vegetables, really high in mineral content. That's what I would suggest. What about you, Doc? I mean, like, you have any other extra ones? I know you like the pumpkin. I love that.

That's great. Yeah, I think, I think bone broth, the green leafy vegetables. And again, the thing I like about pumpkin is it's such an easily digestible form of fiber. The other thing about is that type of fiber you're gonna find in pumpkin is known in Chinese medicine for helping relieve the dampness, which is Candida essentially. So you've got fiber in pumpkin, which actually feeds the type of fiber that will feed good microorganisms.

Yes.

And then it's also strengthening to this pancreas in this, in the upper GI, which is going to be where some of this stuff is happening. And so anyways, there's just a lot of things beneficial. But that's why I'm a huge just So hey, just take canned pumpkin and add a little bit of something like a coconut milk and a vanilla collagen powder and do like a pumpkin pie smoothie. You could add some cinnamon there, like a spice— cinnamon, ginger, clove. I mean, those are all good for your microbiome and actually have some anti-Candida, anti-parasitic properties. So I think that's a perfect breakfast with what we're talking about, is that pumpkin smoothie. Pumpkin, coconut milk, ideally just a little bit from the can. You can add a little water then too, and vanilla collagen protein or vanilla bone broth.

Oh man.

Like that. Good. And then for lunch, do, you know, as Dr. Chris mentioned, like a bowl of chicken vegetable soup. So you got chicken and vegetables cooked in a crock pot. You do the same thing for dinner, or, you know, or grass-fed beef or something like, you know, a bunch of steamed vegetables with tahini. But those are the sort of good meals. If you can eat like that, you're going to see brain fog. And then we can talk about bloating too. Those are going to be good for that as well. But Dr. Chris, let's move over that. So we've talked about Okay, if you've got that symptom of brain fog, we've talked about some things you can do. Let's talk about bloating. Okay, so bloating is one of those things, and you mentioned that with parasites as well. Okay. And also cravings, right? So those are the 2 things— parasites, you've got bloating, and you have cravings.

Yes.

So talk to me a little bit more about parasites. You know, I mean, it seems to me like most— like Frequently, the most I would see this is I would have a patient would go out of the country, and then they would come back and they'd get a parasite. So, and I know we can get it other ways, but what are some of the biggest ways that people get parasites?

Well, we're talking about parasites. I know it may gross some people out there, but in our world, it's like, it's a common thing. Cestodes, nematodes, trematodes, you know, you're talking about flatworms and roundworms, but not even just those worms that most people think about. We're talking about like amoebic dysentery, this small little amoeba What they call them, the schistomas, which are liver flukes, which are so small that you would think they're just small little dots, and they can find their way into your body through dirty water. Water is a big source. I'm telling you, even tap water, you can get a lot of parasites in tap water. I'm not trying to freak anybody out there, but you can get that. You would not believe how much parasitic activity can come from finding them in fruits and on vegetables because—

Yeah.

Certain parasites. There's a great book out there, guys, called Your Brain on Parasites, and they say that the lifespan of parasites— parasites are smart enough to put themselves in the pathway of the host that eats them. So if they want to get into a cow or into a human, they'll put their larvae or their eggs on the leafy vegetables. And if they find themselves in like blueberries or strawberries— I'm not joking, guys— they live off sugars, and so they'll get in there. I've had individuals literally take pictures of them washing their vegetables, letting them steep in certain types of vinegar, and pulling out a worm. So I'm not telling you to stay scared about eating fruits and vegetables, but they are one of the main sources. And if you look through parasitology, you'll find that many of these larvae are plant-based or on vegetables. And then if they do get into beef sources or cow— I mean goat, lamb— you get them through that source. Now, You also have to realize that you can get them from other people. I want everybody out there— they're in many places. We don't say this to have alarm, like you can get them from transmission from other people. The avenue that we're talking about here is that we want you guys to know that if you eat well and you take proper nutrition, you raise your immune system up to help fight that because your body is supposed to fight off and kill off any parasite you ingest by having high amounts of acid in the stomach. Dr. Axe just mentioned If you have leaky gut, if you have a damaged lining from eating too much carbs, bad carbs, and it just creates inflammation in the lining, the lining gets what? Skewed. You start to eat that parasite, the pumps, they literally— the hydrochloric pumps get injured. You will not dissolve the eggs or the larvae or the worms. The thing is, God designed it for you to be able to do that. That's why people, when they eat sushi, they'll eat ginger, wasabi. Eat that stuff in there.

Right.

Why? Because that stuff will go in there and destroy those larvae and stuff, and they can enjoy life like that. Because it kept the stomach strong. So these are sources. Don't live in fear, but know that you can get them from many different places. Because here in America, when people go overseas, they come back like, oh yeah. I had a patient last night, brother, that came in, parasites all over him. And he was like, I went to Africa. I was like, okay. But it happens in the States. I mean, I see it in the States all the time, especially roundworms and pinworms. So it can happen. Yeah.

Yeah, I know. One of the things, and this gets into actually biblical food laws, so we're talking about an ancient form of medicine. You could talk about Israeli medicine, but we know that the big warning there against eating pork is going to be different types of parasites. And so, I think that's the reason is that they are carriers of parasites, diseases. The same thing is mentioned with certain seafood like shellfish. The bigger one though is—

Oh, yeah.

Absolutely pork there, which I know in certain cultures, pork is consumed both in the South, Korean culture, Korean barbecue, that sort of thing. And I know your heritage, your mom is Korean. So, do people eat pork in Korea? Is that— No, they do.

They do. This is what they call taeji. Taeji is taeji kogi. Taeji is like their form of like they have bulgogi, which is like the beef marinated. But a lot of Koreans, um, and I can't speak for all Koreans, but my mom, you know, Mama Chang, she's so funny. She'll look at— she goes, always soak your pork. Like, she soaks her pork in certain types of water. And I go, what? And, you know, it does make a difference because she'll say it gets a lot of the blood out. So she soaks it to get the blood out. She always says bad blood equals cancer. Like, that's what she says because Back in some of the farm areas, they realized that that dirty blood would make people sick. So she will take the pork and soak it for a while because they make stews out of it. Now, towards the coast, towards the western coast or even the southern coast, they'll have tons, you know, of course, more fish type broth. And so they have like seafood broth that they use. But there are the inlands that do use some pork. But majority of a lot of the foods though that you'll see is like you say, like the— Red bean paste, hot pepper, crushed pepper, ginger. They put a lot of it in there because they know that it had antiparasitic qualities with the meat they would prepare it with. So they'll have lots of green leafy vegetables, garlic, you know, literally cut pieces of garlic, put it into a little rice wrap with lettuce, and they will put their beef with some of the spices to help kill off any infection.

And this is something we see in many cultures. Again, you mentioned this with the sushi. Now, there's also the food energetics there, but when you talk about sushi, we're talking about Japan where it's probably most consumed. But in Japan, when you eat fish, raw fish, raw fish eggs, and seaweed, those are all known as cooling foods in Chinese medicine. They're very cold.

Yeah.

And then, we've got wasabi, which is hot, and ginger, which is hot. So, it helps balance out the cold and the warm. But the other thing we're talking about there is ginger and wasabi have anti-parasite, these properties that help kill off those things. And here's the other thing is that seaweed actually also binds to heavy metals, helping pull them out of the body. So, we've all heard that if you consume larger fish, they're going to contain some heavy metals, but part of eating seaweed with fish actually helps combat that in the body. So, I just think it's amazing how when you look at these ancient cultures, they were so thoughtful about knowing, hey, this affects the body in this way a little bit, this. I mean, it's not this random thing where it's like, why do people eat ginger with sushi? I mean, it ends up tasting good, but it's more your taste buds have adapted, people started to like it. It's less about taste, it's more about this was something people did. consciously knowing that there was actually going to be a health effect for the body, that's something that's going to help balance each other out.

Oh, I agree. I think that when, especially like my mom, they said she used to always tell me that whenever certain areas of the country, like towards the coast, they would have hardly any thyroid issues, they would hardly have any type of bone decay, they would hardly have any type of osteoporosis. And they're like, what's the deal? And of course, in Japan, they were doing studies. They said, well, these people eat seaweed, and they do seaweed soup and kelp soup like almost every day.

Yeah.

So you would see like, you know, you know, my uncles, they're farmers out there, you'll see these guys and they're still hauling it really well at 75, 80 years old out and about like with no problems. So you see this, the brilliance of it, because like when you just— I love when you said it, I didn't even think about that, the seaweed pulling out the metals. Because many times, like my mom, she always used to tell me, we eat seaweed squares, and she'd always tell me, she goes, it cleans your blood.

Yeah.

Sure enough, it cleans your blood.

There you go. And that's what it's known for. Again, it's a blood detoxifier and liver detoxifier in Chinese medicine when we're talking about seaweed. So, one of the things I do, Chris, you and I have gone out and I probably think about half the times, you and I have probably gone out to dinner together 15, 20 times. And I think over the year, I think anyways, in half the time we've gone to sushi places, right?

Yeah, we always do.

Whether it's Virago or Oku or these places. But with that, one of the things I've done when we're going out to dinner is I do a couple of things. One, I will do some of these chlorella or seaweed, just little pellets or powders before I go out and eat seaweed. And again, we do some seaweed soups and things, so we're getting some seaweed in the food there as well. But anyways, hey, if you're going to eat sushi, one of the tips here on the show is have some seaweed or some greens powder or something with a spirulina or chlorella or kelp or some sort of seaweed with it, it's going to help. And also, you can do other herbs that can help support the liver like milk thistles and that sort of thing, I think, are always good as well. Chris, let's talk about parasites. I want to talk about this. So, if somebody has a parasitic infection, and then I want to talk about viral and bacteria, I want to get into all of them. If somebody has a parasitic infection, what are your top 5—

Yeah.

You know, herbs that you recommend that have these anti-parasite properties?

Well, I'll tell you this, my friends. Since the last time we talked, I have been researching more and using astragalus a bit more lately. And when we talk about parasites, I've been throwing astragalus in there and I'm finding that the tinctures themselves has been really— so I really do like astragalus. Again, I do like neem powder. I say that many times, but neem powder is very astringent. It will kill a lot. And I found this rosemary, literally rosemary, nicely ground rosemary in a capsule. It has been shown, in my opinion, do well. So we have those 3, and I do like Vital Guard. We talked about that. That's a chrysanthemum. It's chrysanthemum powder. Even people put it in teas. That's been shown really well to kill off infections. And I love artemisia. Artemisia is Sweet Annie. So it's found in many anti-Lyme type treatments, but I would say that artemisia is a really good anti-parasitic. And I will say, I know we just did 5, but the go-tos are like black walnut, and you're going to have wormwood, and they do work really well. But I'll say this, those top 5 I just mentioned, for me, I'm saying I've just seen those just do so well with anti-parasitic.

Well, one of the things too, I think there's different methods for treating and how we treat the body. And I think one of the things that I see a lot in Western medicine practitioners is Even if somebody comes in with a parasite and they're deciding to use something natural, oftentimes they will use black walnut and wormwood. They'll use those tinctures. And, I think wormwood especially, I mean, these are very strong herbs. What you mentioned were things that actually they're effective, but they're not going to be as strong. They'll be a little less strong, a little more gentle on the body. But, if somebody's going to— I think oftentimes people are like, okay, I'm going to go and do a— this is what people do. I'm going to do a 1-week parasite cleanse. I've got a parasite, I'm going to do a 1-week cleanse. And the thing is, it's not the best way, okay?

Right.

I think you should think about this in more of a 90-day rather than a 7-day treatment protocol with most things. Now, I do think you can have a period of time where you are being a little bit more active for maybe it's 14 days. days or maybe as little as 7 of doing certain herbs and then you're transitioning and that sort of thing. But in TCM, the thing is that you always want to be doing, if you have a parasite, is you want to be strengthening your system at the same time you are treating something. You're strengthening.

Yes.

So, herbs like astragalus are not antiparasitic in nature, but they are tonifying. They're strengthening of your organs. So now your organs can more effectively deal with the parasite or the virus. And so that's how astragalus is working, where black walnut is not really tonifying those organs. It's really more so— it's just, it's just gonna go right off. Yeah, those are the killers. They're gonna kill those, those parasites directly.

Totally. And when a patient comes in, and they're— the one thing that I really look forward to when I treat a brand new patient, a new patient come in today, and she unfortunately, she had Lyme disease.

Yeah.

Symptoms all over her. The one thing is I always try to avoid, like you just said, I think it's a great idea when you say it's a 90-day plan, is because many times people who do try to kill off an infection so heavily, so quickly, have a Herx reaction, or they have an abnormal reaction to the toxic unloading of the parasites that die off. Whenever you say tonify, I love the way you put it because these organs like chrysanthemum, chrysanthemum helps really invigorate the kidney qi and help really— actually raise the electricity. I'm saying the Qi is like electricity in your body and the blood flow. And so what we try to do is increase the immune, get the immune active to go kill it off. And then after a while, if you do have to put something that's a little bit harder edge in there, their body has the capacity now, maybe the energy to go ahead and filter those things out. But what most people do is like, let's just go kill it off right now and get it all done in one day. Like, you do not want to do that.

So I'm going to share, share a quick story about myself. This was Many years ago, and this is before I knew what I know today. This is probably like when I was just getting into practice. It might have actually— it might have even been before I was in practice, when I was in school.

Yeah.

And I decided to do a cleanse where I took a bunch of— I took diatomaceous earth. I remember this. And then I took— I was essentially doing like a liver parasite cleanse. And part of the reason is I moved down to Florida, back to Florida. I was in Florida and it was so damp and hot all the time. I noticed, man, my skin is getting red. Like, I just noticed some things and I thought, you know what, maybe I have something internally going on with my liver. And so, anyways, I did this cleanse for my liver specifically. And I remember like 2 weeks later, all of a sudden, I had like these leaky gut symptoms, loose stool, like digestive issues. And I'm like, what's—

Yeah.

Well, the cleanse I did was just so intense for 2 weeks. And anyways, my whole point there, I was taking oil of oregano, all these things.

Oh.

But here's the thing, these things are hard on your gut. That's the other thing. That's, I think, the system that takes the brunt of a lot of these cleanses that's the most susceptible to damage is the digestive tract because it's having to deal with so much. Here's the thing, everyone, listen, your liver is really Strong. Like, if for someone to have a liver issue, you're either a chronic alcoholic where people drink— I mean, think about what the liver can deal with. I mean, there are some people— I had a roommate in college, his dad drank a bottle. I'm serious, drank a bottle of— I think it was a brand, I don't remember. I think it was like Beefeater or something, but he would wake up in the morning, drink a bottle a day.

Oh my God.

And the guy lived to be, you know, 70, but he did this since he was 20 years old, and his liver Dealt with it. So, I mean, the liver is strong. When people have liver issues, it's almost always emotional. I mean, somebody has so much anger in their life that that's actually more of the trigger than even alcohol. Anyways, not to get off track, the thing I want to say about it though is that a lot of times people do these cleanses and typically, it's not the liver being damaged. It tends to be the gut, I think, so often. And then, I changed my diet. It took a little bit, but I changed my diet. And my gut healed, you know, but all that being said, I think this happens a lot with parasite cleanses where people do this parasite cleanse, but ended up damaging their gut in the process.

They can. And I say that, like, I love the way you put about how, how each organ feeds off one another. In the office, what I try to do is try to find the chronic organs, whether it be the liver or the large intestine. And I work— I tell patients that, like, hey, let's start off opening up these acupressure points. Let's start treating these acupuncture points. Let's start giving vitality to these organs so that the organ system starts to communicate with each other. Because when you really download or try to expunge some of that stuff out of your colon, what most individuals may not realize is that your body will take toxins, whether it's from parasites, yeast, or mold, or bacteria, and whatever your liver necessarily— or whatever your colon can't handle, your body naturally, innately knows to push those toxins into your strong liver. Your liver is supposed to make it water soluble to be then what? Put out through your urine. And so individuals say, well, let's just go get the colon and let's just cleanse the colon. I'm like, no, you need to balance— help balance the kidneys. You got to help balance the gallbladder. You got to get everything kind of working in unison. So when you start to invigorate, I find that I tell patients, let's invigorate and clean up the system for 4 to 6 visits. Let's just get it rolling. And then if anything's left over, I know it's pretty bad. Like if it's— if there's serious parasitic symptoms coming on, like we put the killers in there. But you're right. And people say, well, let's just do a 5-day cleanse. I'm not saying they don't work. I'm not saying that at all. But I'm also saying that if you have parasites, those things lay eggs, they have larvae, and so they can have a recurrence. So it's really like you said, changing the way you ate, changing the biome, changing the environment with the energetics of the food and the nutrition of it. It's one of the most strong— the strongest way to actually help affect getting rid of parasites. Yeah.

Yeah, you mentioned neem, and I think neem is a great herb for this in particular. The thing I like about neem, or just for everybody listening, is that, as Chris mentioned, it's really good for the blood but also essentially the liver. So, what the liver does, the liver does so much more than I think people realize. Your liver is responsible for a lot to do with— it's a cleanser even of your blood.

Mm-hmm.

That's a big deal. The liver affects your hormones. A lot of women who have estrogen issues can take herbs that affect the liver like milk thistle, for instance, and it's great for it. In fact, you'll see a lot of people with acne, and actually, neem is used for this. So, one of the top things, if you look on supplements today, neem tends to be used as an acne treatment in a lot of cases. And we know that acne is caused by liver heat.

Right.

and issues with your blood, you know, tends to be liver heat and dampness. So damp heat in the liver, but neem helps combat both of those things. So anyways, neem is a— I think that's a, you know, that was your first suggestion. I think that's a great herb. Also actually is good for blood sugar. So again, really affects the blood and the liver, and by the liver, it's going to affect the skin and other things as well. So I think that's great. So again, we hit on parasites there. We talked about neem. We talked about, hey, if you want to do something for a few days with wormwood and black walnut, it makes sense. Those are not long-term herbs to be on very long. Long-term astragalus is a great herb, as Dr. Chris mentioned, for strengthening your system there as well, and artemisia and some others. So, all right, let's talk about Candida.

Yes, Candida. Oh goodness, when we talk about Candida, there are, from what I read, but I know there's a lot more, Doc, there's got to be about— there's about 14 different strains that Mm-hmm. That can be identified within the gut. And many of these Candidas are used— they will actually use yeast, you know, to ferment certain foods. So people say, how do you get yeast? It's like, well, certain foods in the food industry, they ferment and put the yeast in the food. Now yeast, like we talked about before, could be a natural pathway in the body for your yeast to try to eat up old infections. And many times there's been research that says that parasites and yeast are around to eat up Basically plastics and certain types of metals, because we get tons of metals and tons of plastics within the food sources and in our environment. But when we have yeast involved, they give off toxins such as acetaldehyde. And if any of you guys know it— may not know what acetaldehyde is, it's like formaldehyde. What is formaldehyde? Body embalming. Aldehyde literally starts to turn into ethanol. Ethanol is alcohol. So when you have yeast in high amounts, you literally can have high amounts of aldehyde or ethanol, literally.

Wow.

They call it not— they call it basically alcohol— non-alcoholic fatty liver syndrome. You can have alcohol in your blood without being an alcoholic, and then you'll have brain fog where you can't think. So when I see these things, patients walk in, they literally say, I feel like I'm drunk, doc. I go, okay. So I first thing, I'm like, you sure you're not drinking? They're like, okay. What feeds yeast? Sugars, simple sugars, bad carbs, bad fats. And when I see them, I say, what are the things that help clean up yeast? People use salicylic acid. Some people use different caprylic acid. So they'll use different forms. I'm sorry, I meant caprylic acid. And they'll put that in, that will actually tear the coats off the yeast. The other things you use can be certain types of digestive enzymes. There are certain enzymes that will go in there and open up the yeast. The problem with— and probiotics, we can use probiotics to counter yeast. Now, when we talk about herbals, I really like Chinese coptis. I like those. Chinese coptis is like their natural antimicrobial. I love that and I love Noni. Noni really seems to help with yeast issues. So those 2 are some of the top 2 that I really love. But one thing I have found is if I go in and kill off yeast really quickly, they'll produce— they'll let off that aldehyde and people will feel a ton worse. They'll get the shakes, they'll get brain fog, severe joint pain. So like you, I'm always saying, hey, the liver, let's get the body doing nice Bs. Like one of the products I love is the beef liver. Get that natural B source in the liver, get the body methylating, get that liver moving, get all those aldehydes moving, and then kill off. So I love those. I love noni. I love Chinese cactus. There's so many more, but those are the two that I see really work well. How about you, Doc? What do you like to— what do you like to see?

Yeah, so for Candida, first thing is it really is, you know, I think the herbs are good supplements, like to supplement the diet. And I know you feel the same way, but I think you really got to start with diet. You got to get rid of the carbs, the sugars, that stuff. And again, the diet is— and I mentioned this a lot— it is loads of cooked vegetables. Things like pumpkin. I mentioned that earlier for Candida, and then it's wild organic meat. And that's the basis of the diet, as much as you can eat those things, and then leave everything else out. And then with that, I do— again, this is another one where I like astragalus for strengthening the body. This is another one where I do like probiotics. So as we kill off those, you know, the Candida, let's give it something to replace it or help move it out a little bit. But I like those soil-based probiotics or probiotics in general. So I would say astragalus, I would say probiotics, I would say, you know, an herb that does have antimicrobial properties, whether it be something like a pau d'arco. I really like— and pau d'arco is also good for parasites, actually. But I do think that coupled with an herb like, like ginger, something that helps balance that, because pau d'arco is so cooling, that coupling it with like a cinnamon or ginger, I think is a good thing to do there. But pau d'arco, I think, would be at the top of the list. I do think noni is great. So, so yeah, those would be sort of the way that I would go about treating an issue like Candida.

I do. I think you're right with the Pardi-Arco. I think with probiotics, I've been reading, been trying to practice in about single-strand probiotics and groups. And it's crazy, isn't it, my friend? When you look at a person's culture, like a person like my mom comes from Korea, and they're eating heavily fermented foods, they have quite a bit of culture in their intestines. But we're a melting pot here in America. And they say that on the average, we have— some people can have inoculated with 3 to 4 different types of probiotics in their gut, whereas people in third world countries, I hate to say it, they have many probiotics in their gut because they don't eat the highest quality food, and they are able to tear it down with these probiotics. So what I'm saying is sometimes when you go and get a probiotic, some people say, well, I bloat up. And then I'm saying, you know what? Don't worry. Your genetics may require certain types of probiotic strains.

Yeah.

So find the one that works for you, and it'll help you produce the enzymes But they will kill off yeast. And I mean, I love whenever you find that one or two good sources like those two brands for the patient. I love it.

Yeah, I think a couple other products people prescribe and use, I think grapefruit seed extract is another one that a lot of times people will use, I think can be effective for issues. People sometimes will use oil of oregano as another, but again, warning there. I think it's okay in very small amounts for short periods of time, but it's— that's a really strong one. That's one If you overuse oil of oregano, that will start to affect the gut microbiome and, you know, and cause some damage. So you just can't overdo it. I'm not saying don't do it. I think you can. But, but you don't want to overdo that one. So we've hit on viruses— or no, we've hit on parasites.

Yep.

We've hit on Candida. I do want to hit on viruses here. What are some of your favorite antiviral herbs? And what are the warnings? Like, what do you see when somebody has more of a viral infection? Of course, we know flu-like symptoms is what I know that I see frequently when somebody does, but sometimes people have a virus and it's not flu-like symptoms. So we're going to talk about how to treat those flu-like symptoms, but the others as well. What are your thoughts on viruses, Chris?

Whenever I see a patient come in and they— I know that yeast can cause rashes. I know they can. And I know there's things like shingles and such, but when I see individuals come in and they have random, like, skin irritations. Random. They don't even know why they got them, like, on a pattern. And we know in Chinese medicine, I look at the pattern, I go, what meridian, what acupuncture pathway is in here? But when I see that and they say it just pops up or goes away, that's one of the main symptoms. Clogged ears, itchy ears deep, that could be used too, but I found that viruses get in the ears. And random, when they say eye twitches, when you see anybody have some different neurological symptoms Around like certain body parts, like I have ringing ears pretty badly because Lyme can do that too, but I see it in the ears, some twitching eyes. Sometimes people have twitching lips or they have the cold sores, of course. But when you have rashes, those neurological symptoms, my mind always goes, hmm, there's a virus coupled along with chronic fatigue. When you see somebody come with those bags under their eyes, you know, we talked about the kidney time. I'm like, there has to be a virus in there. And those are some main symptoms, brother.

Yeah, I would agree with you. So, I think here's some of the big ones. Like Chris mentioned, there's the fatigue is a big one. Think about when you have a flu or if somebody has like mono, you know, mononucleosis or Epstein-Barr, all of those viral infections, people have fatigue. So, if you are fatigued, not just in the way where you're a little bit tired, where you're pretty darn, you know, where you just kind of feel like you've got the flu, like you have this a lot. So, again, I think the fatigue is a big one. I think some of the skin stuff you're seeing. Especially under the eyes, as Dr. Chris is mentioning, that's a big one. I do think even a little bit of achiness, like you're aching more than you feel like you should. Now that can be also paired— there's a lot of things that can cause that. But I do think, you know, all of these things coupled together, viruses, you just know your immune system's down. These are some of the biggest ones. And one other, I think the swollen gland, you're going to see more with a viral infection than anything else. So if you notice you've got these glands in your neck and other areas that are swollen. That can be, you know, viral infections as well. So Chris, what are some of your favorite natural treatments for viruses?

Well, I've been doing a little bit more of a friend of like, but what, Ayurvedic? And I'm— I like to use some Ayurvedic and Chinese herbs, of course. But I will say that Evergreen has a viral combo. It's a— it's an herbal company. I'm not trying to plug them. I'm just saying they have a really good— they're out of California. They have a good one. And they have something for the viruses. And I can't tell you every single name of their Chinese herbals, but they have a really good combination. But I have been using one, it's Vidanga. Vidanga is an Ayurvedic herb that's usually used for parasites. I'm saying it does, but what I find is that it really helps with viruses, especially like you just mentioned, Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus, things that get in the heart, the lungs, the sinuses. I find when I get patients on that, they'll literally feel like little quivers, healthy quivers in their heart, and they're like, what's going on? I was like, your body's pushing that stuff out. So I'd say the Chinese herbal combination that I use, Evergreen, Vidanga, I'll be repeating myself on this one, but it's a double whammy. I'm telling you, Chinese coptis is a really good one. I'm telling you, that one really does well. Then there's a company, it's Chenensis isatis. Now, it's a flower, but they call it woad, woad flower, and that's another herbalist. So I find 3 of them. If you guys hear me out there, it's going to be the Chinese coptis, this Chenensis isatis, and also we're going to talk about vidanga. You can ask your primary care, but what I find is that this has such, like you say, cooling qualities. The Vidanga, for some reason, it helps stabilize the pericardium regulation in the heart, so they use that too for the heart. I do like Schisandra as well. Schisandra is a very cleansing of the liver and will push a lot of that Epstein-Barr out. I know it's a lot, guys, to take in, but I give different realms of— like when Josh just talked about the swollen glands, you put somebody on those, one of those 3. Don't take them all at the same time, or a high amount of Schisandra. You have to be careful with Schisandra. But man, the glands will start to drain out. But you're right, Epstein-Barr and cytomegalovirus. And man, I am so surprised how much chickenpox virus is still out in, like, hidden in people's bodies. It still cultivates sometimes even though the pox are gone. So yes, those are some of my top ones, brother.

I know, those are so good. Schisandra was going to be the first one I was going to say as well. The thing I love about Schisandra is it's moderately strong. It's not overly strong, but it's not weak. It has a really good effect on strengthening those adrenals and your immune system both. It really— actually, it's the one food that has 5 flavors. It's known in Chinese medicine as 5 flavors. So, a lot of times, they'll put it in smaller amounts and formulas to help harmonize the formula to make sure it sort of works with your entire body.

Wow.

Again, I love schisandra too. In fact, I had a person I was working with who had mono. And I was working with Gil Bonami, you know him, the Chinese medicine, and he does acupuncture. And so, we prescribed, and the first thing he mentioned was for someone who had mono was absolutely Schisandra. We need to get her on this. And she had the swollen lymph nodes and the whole thing, but we put her on Schisandra and it was amazing. I mean, 3 months later, she went from having mono to feeling the best she's ever felt. But she was working, I mean, just working so much. That happens a lot today. People are just overexert themselves, and then they can get these viruses more easily. But again, to say this, I love Schisandra for viruses. That's probably, again, my number one. And then, I like turkey tail mushroom. I think—

Yeah, yes.

Yeah, turkey tail, there's some good research right now coming out on it and its antiviral properties. So again, I would say turkey tail is another one I would put out there, and I would say more, but anyways, those are some of the biggest ones that I love along— I think Coptis is another great suggestion that you had there. And then, and then I do like, if you have the cold or flu, that type of virus, I like echinacea and elderberry. I think those are really, really good solid choices. I like astragalus long-term for strengthening the immune system, but I think those are some of the top ones to consider there. And then the foods that are going to really support your immune system, which is really probably the most important system when we're talking about viruses, it's those light yellow foods. It's garlic, which actually has antiviral properties. It's miso soup, which is high in probiotics. It's chicken broth. So all those things gonna be super, uh, super beneficial there. So—

So good. So good. I'm gonna tell you a quick side note, guys. Everybody, props to Dr. Axe because we, uh— he, uh, referred a patient to me a while back, and him and Gil were working with a patient that, um, well, been working with like different types of fertility. When they came in, I remember I found some indicators, just some alarm points on the acupuncture system. I thought, I think there's some viral stuff in here, and maybe a little bit of yeast. Dr. Axe had said turkey tail and recommended a mushroom combination. I'm telling you, when the patient took that— and Gil even talked back with me, and I was like, man, I'm sorry, guys. This circulation hormone meridian, which has a lot to do with the uterus and the ovaries, Literally, the energy, the electricity just came back. You can tell all the muscles turned back on. And I was like, what did they do? And then I was like, that mushroom went in there and just helped. And I knew we got rid of that virus. I was like, it was amazing. So kudos. That was great.

Yeah, I think we're gonna see more and more popularity of these medicinal mushrooms, you know, cordyceps for the lungs. And actually, it's good for anything that can affect the lungs. Turkey tail, as we're talking about, for viruses. Lion's Mane for the brain, Reishi for the adrenals, thyroid, the whole body really with Reishi too. So, and there's lots and lots of others. I want to mention a few things, guys. One, if you guys want to continue to learn more about some of the stuff Chris and I talked about, and we're talking about these advanced nutrition about herbs and spices and mushrooms and all these things for healing the body, I want to encourage you guys check out my new book. It's called Ancient Remedies. You can find it on amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com, just search Ancient Remedies, Dr. Axe, or go to your local bookstore and say, hey, do you have Dr. Axe's new book Ancient Remedies? And we have over 70 prescriptions in there. And by the way, I got advice from Chris, Dr. Chris here, on some of the treatment protocols in there for Lyme disease, for viral infections, for Candida. So this is something, again, some of those treatment protocols I worked with him and some other practitioners in creating these advanced formulas. You can check that on Ancient Remedies.

Also, Dr.

Chris has a virtual practice, so he's going to share the website where you can visit him because sometimes when you're going through these types of issues, it's good to work with a practitioner who can really guide you for your specific needs. Here's the thing I know for sure. Everybody's a unique individual, Chris, and I know anytime I've ever treated anybody ever, I've had to adjust things a little bit. I mean, there are certain principles that ring true for everybody. Hey, your immune system's down.

Yeah.

Chicken broth is good, right? But a lot of times with these herbs and prescribing those, you know, everybody's different. Certain things do better for different people based on their symptoms and their unique makeup. So, I encourage you guys, check out Dr. Chris's website. And hey, if you want a great practitioner that I recommend, that I've sent my family to, that I'll see myself, check out Dr. Chris. Dr. Chris, what's your website where people could see you and learn more about you, what you're doing, and even set up a virtual appointment if they're interested?

Oh, it's drmotley.com. You can do it 2 ways. You can spell out doctor, D-O-C-T-O-R, or it's D-R. It all redirects you to drmotley.com. And I'm just here to help, and I thank you for that so much, Doc. And, um, yes, we like to make sure that when we work with individuals, many times we look at people's genetics. We try to see about their uniqueness, because you're right, there's sometimes— generally, guys, when I work with a patient, you can find really good— these things we recommend to you work a lot of the time. I'm telling you, they really do well with patients. But there's sometimes when that person has a blood result that says, I'm not absorbing vitamin D, and then I have to go on my log, my brain log, and go, okay, let's look at the vitamin D receptors in their genes. So what I do one-on-one— I thank you for that— I really try to go in and try to find the uniqueness of the person and see what we can do for your body, particularly with herbs or spices or any type of mineral vitamin to fight off the infection. So visit me at drmotley.com, and yes, we'll be able to set up a virtual appointment.

Awesome.

if you need it, and I'm always here to help.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, Dr. Chris, thanks so much for being on and talking everything natural medicine with me on today's episode. I want to encourage you guys, hey guys, if you want to continue to learn more, get the book, visit Dr. Motley. Also, hey, we're on social media. You can visit Dr. Motley on Instagram. He does have some great Instagram posts. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, those places as well. I want to say thanks everybody for listening to this week's show. We'll be back next week with another show. Thanks so much.

Thanks, everyone.

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