The Poisoning of a Nation... and the Cover-Up | Vani Hari

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I'm going to the beach. I mean, this is a story I've never told, by the way, Josh. I don't think I've ever told this to anybody. So this is exciting to tell this, like, to go back down history lane of how we got to this moment. It was that moment that from there forward we had the momentum. Kellogg's executives didn't show up. They weren't even there. They told their entire office to go home and not be there that day. Signs in the windows that said, "Get off our lawn." I don't think I've ever been more mad in my entire life. I mean, I had to literally physically walk off. It was quite the slap in the face, but I think it was one of the most pivotal moments of our campaign. It was actually the most biggest PR mistake in food industry history, but also the greatest gift to our movement because it energized our movement. It energized our movement so much that Secretary Kennedy saw what happened that day and took our voice to the campaign trail right after. Our media, our TV, everything we're being fed is being largely funded by pharmaceutical ads. Yeah. And pharmaceutical companies, they are very sophisticated. They have a history of colluding with government leaders and the EPA to prevent the impacts of their chemicals from getting out to the public, the risks of their chemicals from getting out to the public, the fact that their chemicals cause cancer.

What they've done in harming people with these conventional medications that are overprescribed, everything from antibiotics to statin drugs to so many others, again, I think that they're, they're next. You know, they're, they're going to pay the price next.

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If another country poisoned our kids the way our government has, we'd call it war. Today we're pulling back the curtain on one of the most important and underreported health battles happening in America right now. Vani Hari, also known as the Food Babe, has stood alongside RFK Jr., Dr. Mark Hyman, myself, Dr. Marty Makary, and others to take on big food, big chemical, and big agriculture. And she's been invited to the White House and the Senate to help lead the charge. And I can just tell you from knowing Vani personally for years, one of the things I respect about her so much is she's doing this as a mom, she's doing this as an activist, she's doing this for the right reasons. And the reality is this, is that there are so many chemicals and additives and things that are harming our kids and harming our health today. And Vani is the one who's really— and when I say this, I mean this— leading the charge of everyone out there in terms of getting these chemicals banned, making a big difference in our food and agricultural systems. And so we're going to dive in and talk about a lot of this stuff today. Also, before we jump in, I want to mention we've got a sponsor for the show today, 360 Cookware. Thank you for sponsoring this episode. If you go to 360cookware.com, and use the code AXE20 for 20% off. You can order non-toxic stainless steel cookware and bakeware today. Hey, Vani, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Josh. So good to be here with you today.

Well, it's been great. You know, the past, past year we've got to see each other in person more. And I remember you called me up. I mean, it's crazy. It hasn't even been a year yet, but it's probably last October, November. And you called me and said, "Hey, you know, we really need to stop Kellogg's and what they're doing and all these other cereal manufacturers from putting all of these artificial food dyes in our cereal." And I was like, "Vani, I'm so honored you asked me." And so I flew out to Michigan. You know, we went to Battle Creek together and stood outside Kellogg's headquarters. And it's crazy the changes that have happened since that happened. So, I'd love for you to just start off by sharing what sort of initiated you to say, we need to make this change. And also, if you would sort of narrate and share with everybody, what are some of the things that have happened in the past, you know, 9 months since you initiated that, uh, you know, that, uh, uh, you know, the petitions and all those changes?

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, you know, when I became a mom, you know, I kind of took a back seat to my activism because It was real risky, you know, going up against the billion-dollar food companies and, you know, being in that aggressive kind of food activist position. And after I had my first daughter and then my son, I just, I really enjoyed home life and being a mother and in that nurturing situation. I know I've been breastfeeding now for over 8 years. And I think it softens you a little bit when you realize that it's not just about you anymore. You have to take care of your family. And so I was very apprehensive about taking on any corporation after starting my family, but I ended up feeling very driven and very passionate about this subject. And I think becoming a mom made me even more passionate about specific chemicals that are targeting children. And the most popular chemical that's targeting children in the United States was artificial food dyes, dyes that are made from petroleum, made from coal tar, that are ingredients that can be contaminated with carcinogens linked to cancer. As well as have behavioral impacts to children. And in countless studies and anecdotal information and the accounts that I've heard from thousands now of moms who have had impacts to— by either removing these dyes or have seen what happens when their kids consume these dyes, I knew something had to be done. And You know, in, in 2013, I decided, you know, this is before kids, I decided that I would take on this issue in a big way because I found out that all of the big food companies here in America had taken out artificial food dyes for other countries, but they didn't do it for the United States. And they did this largely because There was a study that came out in the UK that showed behavioral changes in children and it caused hyperactivity. And so all of the European nations started to put warning labels on their products that had artificial food dyes back in 2010 that said it may cause adverse effects on activity and attention in children. And so instead of putting the warning label on Doritos and Kraft macaroni and cheese and Skittles, they decided to remove these artificial food dyes and make safer, better-for-you versions for Europe and for a lot of other countries. A lot of Asian countries, Australia, Canada, etc. And I felt like this was really hypocritical that an American food company could sell us an inferior product, product that was more toxic, more poisonous for their citizens. And so, when I did the initial investigation comparing products sold here in the United States to products sold in other countries and seeing the vast differences, it was maddening. And when I looked at the health outcomes of American children and Americans and how processed our food is compared to other nations, I knew I had to do something about it. And so, I took on Kraft. To remove artificial food dyes in their macaroni and cheese product. I ended up winning, thankfully, with that campaign, uh, and it spawned a snowball effect to the point where Mars and General Mills and Kellogg's and other big food companies announced in 2015 that they would remove these artificial food dyes as well to kind of keep up with the momentum of that. And the marketplace started to shift. People started to learn about organic food, started to learn about these additives. The food revolution was starting, right? And it wasn't just me, it was countless citizens, people like you, Dr. Josh Axe, that came on the scene, and, and other health leaders across the United States that started talking about these issues. And, uh, and social media started to take off, so we started to get real information about the food that we were eating, whereas traditionally you would only learn about these additives through, you know, some personal investigation or if you worked at actually one of the food companies, because the food and nutrition information that we were getting fed as American citizens was largely being funded by the food industry themselves, and they were profiting off of using these chemicals. They were never going to tell you the truth. And the government was largely in bed with these, these companies. So the government was not going to tell you the truth either here in the United States. So we had no chance to actually learn this information in a widespread way until the invention of social media and independent voices that started to raise the alarm about these chemicals in food and show the side-by-side comparisons of the exact same product that's sold here in the United States to other countries and show the differences in ingredients and how horrific it looks, you know, in black and white. So I was really excited about the momentum of that, and that— and, and then shortly thereafter is when I started my family. But one day, uh, when my daughter was 2, I was going down the aisle and I couldn't believe my eyes. Kellogg's had come out with a Baby Shark cereal, and at the time Baby Shark was the most popular toddler song. Everybody knows that song. And my daughter recognized the character and said, hey, look, Mom, Baby Shark, was really drawn in by that box of cereal. And I said, oh, it's Kellogg's. They said that they were going to remove dyes. Let's, let's take a look, right? And they didn't. And instead they were creating new cereals with artificial food dyes to target children of today. And that really angered me as a mother who's just trying to feed my kids the safest, best ingredients and not let them be targeted by this marketing. So I started a petition and it quickly gained a lot of traction. However, that's right when the pandemic started. And so the pandemic happened and I wasn't able to go to Kellogg's headquarters and deliver those petitions and really hold them accountable because that's really what I wanted to do after I got 50 My goal was 50,000 signatures, and at that point I wanted to go deliver those. I never got to do that because the pandemic happened, the world shut down. Um, during this time I'm building Truvani, my supplement company that I started because I wanted to change the food industry from the inside out, a more safer, less risky, uh, way to make a living, if you will. And, and so I'm building that at the same time, and I'm also thinking about, you know, how do I hold these companies accountable that said that they were going to remove artificial food dyes and never did, and lied to the American public. And it really bothered me that nobody was holding them accountable. I talked to countless lawyers, and the lawyers never— you know, they were like, oh, it's really hard to like pin them down. This would be a really hard lawsuit. It would actually end up having to be a class action. And You know, it was always like we just didn't have a strong enough case. But I'm like, how does a company lie, get all the public press, get all of the news articles of the goodwill that they're, you know, showing towards their products and their customers and then never go do it and just leave the assumption that their products are now clean of artificial dyes. And if you don't check and look at the ingredient labels, you just assume that they did what they said they were going to do. And so that really bothered me. And so it was something that was just lurking in the background of my work and I continued to write cookbooks and, but then, you know, something kind of amazing happened. Uh, my friend who I know is good friend of yours as well, Josh, uh, Jason Karp from Hueman Co reached out to me. He started Hu Kitchen and we'd been friends for years. And he said to me, Vani, I really want to take on this issue with you, and let's, let's team up and let's, let's do something about it. And about a week prior to that, I had met Kali Means, and, or just maybe a few days actually before that, I, I'd met Kali Means because I'd seen his work on the internet and was like, he is talking about these issues that I care about so much in such an amazing, uh, intellectual way that's so easy to understand. And it's really hitting, hitting the head, and it's incredible. And I just have to meet him and tell him thank you. And, and, you know, I, I literally had no agenda in mind when I met him. I just said, hey, I think what you're doing is amazing. What can I do to support you? You know, anything, right? Just because I wanted to see him succeed in his— in getting out his message. And he was coming out with a new book, Good Energy. And so, uh, shortly after that call with Jason, somehow we all ended up on a call within a day, 24 hours, with Elon Musk's lawyer, Alex Spiro. And we are putting together a letter, an activist letter against Kellogg's to hold them accountable finally for the fact that they have not removed artificial food dyes. And Jason was a Kellogg's shareholder, and so it came from him, and he, you know, demanded that, you know, to the board of directors and to Kellogg's that they should do something about this. Well, they went back and forth, uh, with potential meeting requests, and the Kellogg's lawyers wanted to bring the Consumer Brands Association with them. The Consumer Brands Association is the biggest food lobby in the United States, and they said that they wanted to discuss the science of artificial food dyes with Jason. And so Jason said, well, well, I want to bring my scientists with me. And so we were thinking, you know, Dr. Mark Hyman, maybe you, you know, others, you know, who are skilled in looking at the review of these studies on these additives. And we said, well, we're going to bring some people too. And, you know, I was going to show up, you know, and, and, and maybe, you know, we were asking our friends Jesse Itzler, like others, you know, just important people in this movement that have cared about these issues. And well, they, they quickly got nervous and cold feet and canceled the meeting. And after we, you know, suggested that, and that was probably, you know, back and forth negotiation until almost June of last year. Summer happens, the kids are out of school, I'm focused on them, and I'm still— it's still in the back of my mind, like, what are we gonna do to hold Kellogg's accountable? How are we going to put the nail on this coffin. And thankfully, I, um, was in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I met Callie for the first time and his family, and I invited them, uh, to our hotel, and we all hung out at the pool. We had a good time, and he shared with me that day that he was in talks with Secretary Kennedy now, but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., to, um, a lot to align with President Trump in the presidential election. And I remember I was sitting there, I was sitting there at lunch and my jaw just like dropped open and I was just like, what? You know, and I, I just couldn't believe that he was in these conversations and it was just It was before— it was a month before it was even announced that we were talking about this. And it was— it kind of, you know, he goes, you know, do you ever get involved in politics? And I said, oh, oh no. I mean, that was my first gut reaction was I said, oh, oh no. I just remember I was like, you know, sitting at the pool. It was like 100 degrees outside because it's Castile, Arizona. And I'm just like No, I don't get involved in politics. And he's like, well, let me tell you what I've been doing. And then I'm just kind of like, wow, okay. And, um, and so a month later, Secretary Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., announces that he's dropping out of the race and joining forces with President Trump. And he gives a speech, and I'm at the beach with my in-laws and I watched that speech because they're always watching the news.

It was amazing, wasn't it? Just amazing.

It was probably the best speech I've ever heard of any politician. And when it was getting good, when it was getting really good, when he was hitting the nail on the head on so many different issues, CNN cut him off because we were watching CNN. And I said, well, wait a minute, like, I want to hear the rest of that. And so I had to go find on the internet where I could watch the speech unfiltered and uncensored. And I, and I was like, this is, this is what's wrong with our media and the fact that everything is being controlled by pharma and big food and big chem. And I was just like, everything he is saying is everything I've believed to my core. And when I heard that speech I went and took a walk. First of all, he said Callie's name in the speech, and I was like cheering him on. And my kids heard it, and they had just met Callie a few weeks earlier, so they're like, he just said Callie! And I'm texting Callie, I'm like, my kids are cheering for you. And, and I'm, I'm going to the beach. I mean, this is a story I've never told, by the way, Josh. I don't think I've ever told this to anybody, so it's just exciting to tell this like to go back down history lane of how we got to this moment. I walk on the beach and I do a— I immediately get on Instagram and do a story. And I said something like, I have a feeling that I am going to be getting involved in politics again. There is, there is something here. And And that's all I said. I was just like, I just have a feeling, right? And I just kind of wanted to like put out the feelers like this is, this is just it. I felt very called. Okay. And shortly thereafter, Kali calls me and he says, hey, you know, I'm helping Senator Ron Johnson put together this roundtable, and we'd really like you to speak and talk about the food babe movement. And I said, oh no, no, no, no. Like, you know, I was just like, oh, I don't think so. And he's like, you know, it'll be in Washington, it'll be great, that, you know, he's trying to kind of sell me on it. And I'm just like, oh no, I don't I don't know, I'll think about it, right? And maybe a few days go by, we talk again, and I say no again. And I just kind of put it off and I kind of ignore it and we talk about something else. And, and then the next day I'm running at Orangetheory and I have the best idea.. And I said, oh, this is what I'm going to do. And so I called Kali and I said, hey, I'll do it. And I have this idea that I will make my entire testimony about this issue, how American companies are poisoning us with ingredients they don't use in other countries. Show the examples. And then invite both political parties to Battle Creek, Michigan, and make this political so that we actually get attention. Yeah. And Kelly's like, yeah, this is a great idea, right? And I'm like, I think this, this will, this will re-energize the campaign, right? Like, I think this is good. So at this point, have no idea that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is going to be at that Senate roundtable or hear my testimony. He was not part of the roundtable initially. It was going to be me and some other advocates and other experts and doctors like Dr. Casey Means and Dr. Chris Palmer and Dr. Marty Makary, who's now the head of the FDA. Uh, he was not initially part of it, but I think as things started coming together, he ended up wanting to be part of it. And so about a couple days before I went, I found out he was going to be there. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. And so the night before I gave my testimony, I met him for the first time and was able to have dinner with him. And that was really cool to be able to talk to him. And immediately we started talking about MSG in Chick-fil-A chicken sandwiches. And, uh, next to us was Senator, uh, Hagerty, who was the former ambassador to Japan, and he gave like a history lesson on how MSG was created to make soldiers eat more in times of, uh, a situation where they experienced PTSD and high stress, where you know, they would get so, you know, their adrenaline would be pumping so hard and their cortisol would be so high that they lost their appetites in war. And so they invented MSG to, to lace their food so they would actually eat the food and it would stimulate the appetite. And, and I'm like, oh, well, that makes sense. That's why they give MSG to rats in obesity studies, right? To study obesity drugs and obesity-related diseases. To make them eat more than they should. And that's why the food companies are putting it in our food, so we eat and remember that flavor and crave that flavor. And it was just such an extraordinary conversation having that with him and the senator. And I was sitting next to Representative Thomas Massie, and it was quite the night. And I was able to tell him he was my hero. Because I really connected with him on a spiritual level in terms of the attacks that he's faced on his character and on his mission, and going up against the largest corporations of the world and the biggest special interests in his work for so many years, and, and seeing the onslaught of character assassination that he's been through. And I experienced something very similar when I, you know, had my rise, uh, to notoriety. And so spiritually, I felt very connected to him that way because I saw what he was up against and all of the misinformation and lies they say about him and what he stands for.

And I mean, you could argue probably nobody has more been mis— more misrepresented and slandered than him. I mean, if you go all the way back, I'm talking about 10, 15 years. I mean, it has been— and to think that he is the HHS secretary running all of healthcare right now. I mean, I said this to somebody recently. I'm like, if I would go back 2 years ago and you would've said to me, RFK Jr. is gonna be running, you know, everything, and then Marty Makary here, and then Mehmet Oz here, and then I'm like, I'm like, yeah, right. There's just no way. I mean, just a miracle. It's absolutely a miracle. Keep going. But I just, you know, it's so, so true.

I mean, it's the, it's definitely the ultimate redemption when he was confirmed. It was, I mean, I cried tears of joy. I was so happy. Yeah. Um, but so, so when the next day I gave my testimony, And during my testimony, it was like the whole room became electric when I was showing the side-by-side comparisons of McDonald's french fries and Skittles and Trix cereal and, you know, Doritos and other major food brands using safer, better ingredients in other countries and selling us the more poisonous, toxic version here. And watching the leaders in the room the members and other senators in the room in their astonishment at how perverse this has gotten. And I think the moment that it really just exploded in the room was when I said, why is it that citizen activists like me and others are trying to hold these companies accountable Why isn't it politicians like you? And I looked Senator Ron Johnson right in the eye, and I looked RFK Jr. right in the eye when I said that, and they nodded back and they agreed. They're like, why isn't it us holding these companies accountable? And it was that moment that from there forward we had the momentum with Kellogg's, because I announced in my testimony that I would be delivering the petitions once and for all. I announced the I said on October 15th. I let people know it was a deadline. I invited both political parties to come, all political candidates, anybody who wanted to get involved in our fight. I made it as bipartisan as possible. It was— there was not one single partisan talking point that whole day in that roundtable, even though it was sponsored by a Republican senator. It was 4 hours of beautiful discussion on how to save humanity. And, and if you've never seen that Senate roundtable, if you're watching this, you should go back and watch it. It was extraordinary. And, and so at that point forward, we had about 100,000 signatures on our Kellogg's petition. By the time we got to Battle Creek, Michigan, we had over 400,000 signatures just a few weeks later because of the momentum of that testimony going viral. And all the work that we were, you know, had, had done to bring everyone together. People like you, Dr. Josh Axe, I can't thank you enough for, first of all, flying over to Battle Creek, Michigan. It's not an easy place to get to. And to see so many health leaders come out and support and regular everyday citizens out there joining us. I mean, it was like close to 1,000 people, they estimate. That were there. I mean, it was quite the moment, and it was, it was probably the most impactful day of my career, giving a speech at this place called, you know, Friendship Park, which is— it's so ironic now that I think about it, because I think people like you, Josh, and others that were there that day, we were like bonded forever in friendship after that moment and being there and marching to Kellogg's headquarters to deliver those petitions and then be met with such disdain at the door where Kellogg's executives didn't show up. They weren't even there. They told their entire office to go home and not be there that day. And so we were met with a, you know, paid-for security guard who gathered the petitions and then signs in the windows that said, "Get off our lawn." You know, I don't think I've ever been more mad in my entire life. I mean, I had to literally physically walk off and like cool off because I didn't know how to handle seeing that sign, "Get off our lawn," and it pointing down at so many women and children who had come out that day to support our mission and other citizens and elected officials. So it was, uh, it was quite the slap in the face, but I think it was one of the most pivotal moments of our campaign. It was actually the most, the biggest PR mistake in food industry history, but also the greatest gift to our movement because it energized our movement. It energized our movement so much that Secretary Kennedy saw what happened that day and took our voice to the campaign trail right after. And not only did he, you know, send out a tweet in support of us, but he also went in interviews and said, the first thing I'm going to do when I am secretary or in a position of power, I am going to ask the food companies to remove artificial food dyes. And that's exactly what he's done since becoming Secretary of Health and Human Services.

Well, it's amazing. A lot of these are, you know, we see companies removing these left and right. We see, you know, Yeah, we see these bands coming up and so it's super exciting. It's super exciting. You know, one thing to turn the conversation a little bit and then I have quite a few other questions for you. But, you know, one thing is it is so a shame that so much of this has turned still partisan today. You know, there's this— I know we're on a chat together, a group chat, and there's this— I think she's a dietitian, maybe. Who's doing these interviews and basically kind of trying to diminish the Maha Movement, trying to diminish artificial food dyes. Why do those matter? That's not important. Forget it. And be very critical of RFK Jr., of yourself, of sort of anybody that's a part of this whole movement. But it is sad that there are so many of these people that— and the other thing is, you know what most of these people do? They don't really have any suggestions. Are trying to criticize others for popularity. And, um, it's sad, but it still is political, which is so, which is so crazy, you know. Most people have no idea that the pan they used for breakfast this morning may have released the same forever chemicals found in contaminated drinking water. In fact, US Poison Centers reported 267 cases last year of people getting sick from the toxic fumes released by their nonstick pans. That's why I want to tell you about 360 Cookware. They make premium stainless steel cookware that's free of toxins like PFAs, PTFEs, and PFOAs. No chemical coatings, just pure high-quality steel. It's handcrafted in the United States, built to last a lifetime, and designed with something called Vapor Technology. This lets you cook at lower temperatures while locking in flavor and nutrients so your meals actually taste better and support your health. They've thought of everything from oven safety up to 500°F to compatibility with any cooktop, including induction. And yes, they back it with a lifetime warranty. This is cookware you can feel good about using every single day. I want to encourage you to head on over to 360cookware.com and use the code AXE20 to get 20% off your order. This is a simple change that makes a big difference in your life, for your meals, for your health, and for your peace of mind.

So the people that are critical of our movement, I have a, I have a really hard time understanding where they're coming from because there has never been this type of information ever coming out of our health government leaders in history. I have never seen the FDA talk about the food chemicals that don't belong in our food the way that they have. I have not seen the Secretary of Health and Human Services talk about the root cause of why we are so sick. I have not seen anyone address the fact that there is a loophole that allows the food companies to self-affirm and self-approve chemicals for use in our food system. I have not seen anyone talk about the fact that infant formula has not been reviewed in over, you know, two, two decades, I think, uh, and, and looked at the nutrition science of how to get safer, better formulas for our infants. I have not seen, I mean, I could go on and on and on.

Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna tell, I mean, I saw one of the criticisms was we needed to be, you know, basically, yeah. One of these people was basically like, the key is to get people to stop eating calories and sugar. And it's like, you can't like tell pe— you know, you know what I'm saying? I mean, we, we, of course, this is what we do. You and I educate people. So we are constantly doing that. The government's job is to protect us. From, from things that aren't even food that are called food, and those types of things. And I know from working with like a lot of kids on the autistic spectrum, and a lot of kids with ADHD, and a lot of families, food dyes affect them. Food dyes absolutely cause behavioral issues. They actually— they absolutely cause issues with the liver, the kidneys, the gut. So as a practitioner, I've seen that as well. The science shows that as well. You've seen that as a mom. And, and, uh, and a leader in this whole space. And so, you know, I think one of the things that RFK Jr. is doing, and this is what I'm saying, is one of the first things— and he said this as well— he's going after low-hanging fruit. What are some changes we can make right away, as quick as we can, that we know will make a difference? And he's got a plan. I mean, when you look at— I just saw his policy of what he's trying to do with vaccines, and it's really, um, it's really impressive. I mean, the big— I mean, the changes he's trying to make right now I'm like, they are— like, I don't think most people understand how big his changes are. I saw someone post recently who was on the left and more holistic, like, well, why isn't he banning them all? I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, he couldn't possibly do that. Like, that's, you know, it's just not realistic. But what he's doing, it is, it is very lofty. These are big, hairy, audacious goals. The crazy part is he's probably going to do them though. Like, I mean, you know, and looking at what he's going after and everything from vaccines to getting peptides approved, you know, opening things up where HSA accounts and we can spend more on vitamins and supplements and medications and holding, you know, removing pharmaceutical commercials from TV. Like, these are massive, massive changes he is working on all right now. All of them.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that alone. Dr. Axe, if that's accomplished, that is partly the root of all of our evil, is the fact that our media, our TV, everything we're being fed is being largely funded by the pharmaceutical ads. Yeah. And pharmaceutical companies. And when you stop that, that stops a lot of information that, you know, we don't need to hear that, you know, misinformation that we're getting fed that ends up keeping us in a perpetual cycle of being sick. And when you start talking about the root cause of why we are so sick, what we're eating, our lifestyle factors, exercise, sleep, then we start to see that like we can really empower our citizens to start to live a healthier life, to literally change the life expectancy trajectory we're on from being lower than our, um, uh, you know, our children having a lower life expectancy than us.

Yeah.

Uh, changing that so that they end up having, you know, a better life expectancy than us. And if we're able to just do that alone, that's tremendous. Whereas any previous administration up into this point has not made this a priority like it is today.

And that's true for Democrats and Republicans, whether somebody like Bush or Clinton or Obama or whoever. I mean, it's been across the board. They have not really cared or prioritized American health. That's the reality. And they haven't done it. One of the things I would love for you to share, because I think this would just shock some people, because it shocked me, because I think a lot of times people would think, well, that, that probably only takes place in the movies. You know, when this dietitian was posting yesterday criticizing Maha Somebody posted on there, I think she's likely paid by these pharmaceutical companies. And I don't think people realize how often there are trolls online and people that are showing up at events and doing things where pharmaceutical companies actually pay these people to go out and speak, even though they're not publicly saying, I'm paid by Big Pharma. And I remember you had a book launch, this is years ago, and there were all these negative reviews before the book even came out. I'm talking about like, like 100, like so many negative reviews. Of course, you remember this because it was your book. I remember thinking, this is crazy. And it was like literally pharmaceutical companies were paying people to go and write negative reviews for your book. So, share with people just how often that's happening where they might think, oh, this person's a leader in health and they're speaking out against and saying everyone should be eating food dyes or whatever. And these people are actually paid for.

Yeah. It's funny because at the time when I was, you know, taking on the food industry for the first time and taking on some of these big giant corporations and getting them to remove chemicals like Subway, getting them to remove a chemical called azodicarbonamide and getting Kraft to remove artificial food dyes. And then I got Starbucks to remove caramel color level 4. And then I got the beer companies to release the ingredients in their beer for the first time in history. You know, there's all these wins back to back to back and the food industry and the chemical industry were very nervous about the power that I had. This amazing army of citizens, everyday citizens that signed petitions and held these companies accountable, they wanted to do whatever they could to take down my character and to stop the momentum of this movement, to stop my success. And so, at the time, we didn't have this widespread awareness around chemicals in our food like we do now. I didn't have this cover from the leaders of our world saying the same things, right? I felt largely alone in a way. You know, speaking off a rooftop and trying to warn the public. And so I felt very attacked by this coordinated effort online to take me down. But it wasn't until FOIA requests, Freedom of Information Request Acts, that we submitted, and organizations like U.S. Right to Know, an amazing nonprofit that submitted all of these FOIA requests to different universities and people who were spokespeople that you saw in every— like, for example, there was a university professor, Kevin Folta, who ended up in every single article that was written about me. And I'm like, how did this guy end up in everything? And he's a, you know, doctor, PhD professor, saying that I'm full of, you know— and, and of course they're using him as like an expert against this, you know, just everyday citizen who decided to research and learn about health and food. And so they were trying to diminish my credibility and tell everyone that I didn't know what I was talking about. But they used this guy over and over and over and over again. Well, we found out through Freedom of Information Request Act that he was getting paid by Monsanto, Bayer, Syngenta, others, right? And he was in coordination with these chemical corporations. And thankfully, an amazing Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Eric Lipton published an article outing him, and it was on the front page of the New York Times. It was incredible. So I felt very vindicated, and I remember taking that front page article and sending it to James Hamblin, who wrote the you know, 15-page piece in The Atlantic about me. And it was like me and Kevin Folta against each other. And, and how I said in that piece, this guy is getting paid by someone, I just don't know who. You need to ask him and investigate this. I send this article to him and I'm like, I think you need to update that piece and say I was right.

Yeah.

Well, he refused to do it. And, and it was, it was maddening. But, but this is what I was up against. Was hidden, you know, collusion behind the scenes with academics and quote-unquote independent experts trying to persuade the media and the public to say these chemicals are safe, GMOs are safe, glyphosate is safe, artificial food dyes are safe, right? And, and I don't know how many times, you know, I've read that in the paper where it says, you know, the food companies go by the fact that these things are safe. They're not safe. We know they're not safe. These other countries have taken them out for a reason, to protect their citizens.

Yeah.

And we've shown you the side-by-sides, right? And so, so now the truth is getting out there. You know, I ended up writing a whole book about this. It's called Feeding You Lies, where I, I talk about the playbook of the chemical and food industry It follows largely the pharmaceutical industry and what they do as well. I think they're even more nasty, and I think that's why the attacks on RFK Jr. have been so vicious. Um, but the chemical corporations are just as bad. I mean, to the point where they had a program at Monsanto that was called Leave No Comment Left Behind. That meant anytime anybody would talk critically about GMOs or glyphosate or any of the chemicals used in an and genetically engineering crops, they would have an army of trolls, astroturfing campaigns that would go and squash that, you know, piece, that news article, that video, anything that you would post. And so there would be, you know, countless negative comments about usually character assassination against the person who was posting it, which a lot of times was me. Um, But they had this program, they have since shut it down because they got found out, right? And then Bayer bought Monsanto. But also they continued to do illegal activity, which was they used a secret database that was actually funded by USAID, which actually was shut down thankfully, um, recently. But, uh, they funded this secret database called uh, what was the name of it? I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but it was a secret database and it was being run by the head communications director at Monsanto, and it housed doxxing information about activists like me and Vandana Shiva and Michael Pollan, or anybody who would speak out about the, uh, chemical-intensive agriculture in America. And, and it was not just used by Monsanto. It was used by ChemChina, and you know, which is now, you know, Syngenta was bought by ChemChina, and other chemical corporations. And it had information about my parents, my family, had my address, had a phone number. I mean, it was very intense personal information about me, but it was used to use me as like I'm a target of their chemicals. And you know, they were using this information to gather intel on, on me and others. So, uh, this— they are very sophisticated, and they have a history of colluding with government leaders and the EPA to prevent the impacts of their chemicals from getting out to the public, the risks of their chemicals from getting out to the public, the fact that their chemicals cause cancer.

It is crazy. I mean, the way that I see this and just, you know, through kind of a philosophical or symbolic biblical lenses, I mean, this is a true David versus Goliath sort of situation. You know, you have gone up against these, I mean, we're talking about billion and multi-billion dollar companies. RFK Jr.'s done a similar thing, billion dollar companies and won. I mean, in certain ways, you know, definitely won some of these battles. And I think that this is where ultimately things are always exposed in the end. I mean, things are always found out. And so by Kellogg's going back on their word and essentially lying and not keeping a promise, they're suffering now, even economically. I saw you post last night, like the shares, it's not good. It's not good for Kellogg's right now. And a very similar thing for Monsanto. I mean, they've taken a major hit from just lying and killing. So many people. That's a whole nother thing. And I think the pharmaceutical industry is next. I think what they've done in harming people with these conventional medications that are overprescribed, everything from antibiotics to statin drugs to so many others, again, I think that they're, they're next. You know, they're, they're going to pay the price next.

So yeah, they are. And I think, again, we have extraordinary leadership coming out of Washington to, to hold these companies accountable and to put human health health above profits. And that's really exciting to have someone with that passion and someone with that, the know-how of how this works and all the corruption, and to have someone as passionate as Secretary Kennedy in that position. Um, we're really lucky as, uh, as a nation. And, and it's, it's, it's, it's an everyday battle though in terms of of, you know, watching the lies come out of the media and the onslaught of the mass media and how they spin a certain narrative to try to negatively talk about this movement or talk about even the progress that Secretary Kennedy and others have made to this day. And it is, you know, my phone since September has not been— has been ringing off the hook with with reporters, you know, from every single major news outlet. And it's every single day, it's, it's trying to figure out, you know, fact from fiction and getting that out to the public and being that positive voice out there that's like, this is really what's happening, right? And I think the perfect example of this is actually what happened recently where President Trump announced that he was talking to Coca-Cola and convinced them to move, uh, to move from high fructose corn syrup to cane sugar. And immediately there were so many articles that came out that talked about how this is a nothing burger, that, you know, it's still a soda, uh, this has nothing to do with human health. Yeah. And meanwhile, the chemical corporations are laughing because that's exactly what they want um, being portrayed in the media. They want people to think it's— there is no difference between high fructose corn syrup and cane sugar. But when you actually look at the truth and the facts behind the chemicals involved in producing cane sugar versus high fructose corn syrup, they're dramatically different. First of all, high fructose corn syrup is coming from genetically engineered corn that is designed to withstand heavy doses of Roundup that causes cancer. That alone, the reduction of high fructose corn syrup or the elimination of high fructose corn syrup in our food supply in America would have a tremendous impact on how much glyphosate's being dumped into our farmland and our waters and in our bodies. So that alone is a win in my opinion. But again, at the end of the day, it's true. It is a soda. It's not something you want to be consuming because it now contains cane sugar. But it's more about the bigger mission, the overall supply chain, and how to change our farming practices to more regenerative farming practices where we have more biodiverse crops. We're eliminating, um, the need for so much corn and soy and converting those farmers over to other crops that are more nutritionally sound for our diets, that don't— aren't solely there to feed cattle or, uh, produce cheap ultra-processed additives.

Yeah, yeah. And there's— and there's a big difference between this ultra-processed food and high fructose corn syrup and a processed food like like cane sugar. And of course, again, you don't want to eat a bunch of cane sugar either, but to your point, there's no doubt that for the environment, for toxicity levels, the amount of glyphosate, for our health, it's better than high fructose corn syrup. But you're doing just such incredible work and just leading this charge. I know that there are so many people that are just so grateful for you and all the amazing things you've done. And on top of that, on top of leading this charge, you've started an amazing supplement company. You're, you know, you were just sharing with me the amazing vacations you've been doing with your kids and family this summer. I've loved the post. I love following you online and seeing those there as well. What are you excited about coming up? What are some other— by the way, one of my goals for you in the future, I have goals for you. So one of those is I would love to see you start a food company in the future. Maybe that's post-supplement. Maybe we got a food company in your future, but I'd love to— what are some things you're you're excited about?

Yeah, you know, I am— well, first of all, it's, it's the end of summer. The kids are going to be going back to school soon. And, you know, I, I just kind of realized since having kids, your summer, you're kind of, you know, your, your productivity is a little lower because they're out of school and you want to spend time with them. And you only have so many summers with them. And I, I really try to maximize that time. And when they get back to school, I'm just going to hit the ground running. I have so many different projects. I have a new cookbook coming out. I'm really excited about it. It's, um, it's called Food Babe Feasts and it's going to be on like how to party like a food babe, right? Like how to really enjoy food and have fun with food and, and, and have a, throw a party and have a celebration, have a holiday without the toxic crap. So, um, I'm really excited about, you know, digging into that, that, um, that cookbook. And, you know, one of the things that I've been cooking with lately that I absolutely love is 360 Cookware, actually, which is actually the sponsor of this blog post, which is amazing. They, they are one of the tools that I use every single day in my kitchen. I, I make a steel-cut oatmeal almost every single day, and it takes me less than 30 seconds to like put it in their Crock-Pot, which is 100% stainless steel, by the way. So there's no, um, risk of leaching lead or other chemicals that you see in the other ceramic type Crock-Pots, or the ones that have the coating on them, the different colored coatings and things. So this is completely stainless steel. So not only is it easy to clean because you just literally throw it in the dishwasher, or you can put it, um, in your sink and just a little soap, and everything just wipes clean very quickly. But it's, it's so easy to use and it saves me so much time in the morning when the kids wake up and they're so hungry. Yeah. And they want to have something first thing. And this is my, my biggest trick for any mom out there, to have something really healthy ready to go. And I think this is one of the reasons why cereal became so popular, um, back in the '80s, is because, you know, women went back to work and it was just like, you know, they didn't have time to cook a homemade breakfast every morning or even to sit and, you know, stir the oatmeal so it doesn't burn. And so now you don't need to do that. You can use this Crock-Pot and it's amazing. It's 30 seconds the night before and you have creamy, amazing steel-cut oat. And I, I use this brand, I don't know if you've seen it, but it's called One Degree.

They test for glyphosate and they have sprouted oats.

Yes, yes. So the oats are so the phytic acid's removed, so the oats are more easily digestible for anybody that has any gut issues or anything in general, just you want to feel healthier and happier, you know. So anyways, it's just one of my tricks that I have so that when the kids wake up and they're like, "Mom, I'm starving," I have oatmeal ready. I can throw some ground flaxseed on it, some cinnamon, I can put walnuts in it, some almond butter, add some nice fat in there, and then some berries, and they love it. They love pomegranate seeds in it. Anyways, it's just my— it's my hack for having something easy but healthy, ready, available in the morning. Um, but anyways, I, I am a— I'm really excited about getting back in the kitchen and making these recipes for this cookbook. So I've been thinking a lot about that. And, and one of the things I've been thinking about too is just like how to reduce my load of all of the, the plastics and the aluminum foil and all of the other chemicals I'm being exposed to. And one of the things I've thought about recently, and For a while, I've stopped using any kind of aluminum foil to cook my food on because I don't want that aluminum to leach into my food. And there's been data that suggests that aluminum is linked to Alzheimer's disease and other health issues. And so, I primarily use parchment paper, but then I thought about the parchment paper that I'm using too. That's also coated in some kind of plastic, right? And I'm cooking on that. And so this is another use for 360 that I love, is all of their cookware is stainless steel. Yeah. And so they even have stainless steel bakeware where you don't need to use parchment paper, you cook directly on that. Whereas most bakeware that you find in different stores that are available, it's all coated with aluminum, it's all coated with, you know, Teflon or some other toxic chemical that's leaching forever chemicals into your, uh, food or your diet. And we know that forever chemicals are really hard to remove from your body once they're in them. That's why they're called forever chemicals.

Yeah.

And this is what eventually leads to hormone disruption, immune disorders, um, liver damage. It leads to cancer. And so when I think about things that I'm doing every single day I think about how I can just eliminate my exposure to these chemicals in, in the easiest way possible, the most convenient way possible. So it's not going to be something where I'm, you know, spending so much time, um, doing something different in the kitchen, but it's, it's just an easy swap. So anyways, I, I'm a huge fan of 360. I partnered with them too. I love them. And, um, anyways, if you're trying to clean up your cookware in your kitchen, you've got to check out this company. And they're all American-made, which I love.

Yeah, it's so great. Well, I want to encourage you guys to, yeah, check out 360 Cookware. It is a great stainless steel cookware brand. You can go to 360cookware.com, and if you put in the code Axe20, you can get 20% off their cookware and bakeware there as well. Vani, thanks so much for coming on. Thanks so much for leading the charge. I want to encourage everybody in the future when it's out, when it's ready on Amazon. Check out Vani's new cookbook, Food Babe Feast. I love the name. It's going to be great for Thanksgiving, Christmas, holidays. A lot of the comfort food turned healthy, the food that we love. So I want to encourage that as well. Well, Vani, thanks so much for coming on. Thank you, everybody, for listening. And thanks so much for tuning in here to the Dr. Josh Axe Show, where every week we're diving deep into the science and principles of how you can heal physically, mentally, and spiritually. Don't forget to subscribe also share. There are so many people that don't know the truth about what the pharmaceutical companies and the food companies are doing to target our kids, to ruin our health. But, and also, I want to thank a lot— so many of you I know have been reposting the post that Vani and I have done, bringing awareness about food dyes, bringing awareness about high fructose corn syrup and all the chemicals in our food supply to make America healthy again. So thanks so much. Thanks again, Vani. And I'll see you guys on the next episode.

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