The Untold Story Behind The Chosen | Dallas Jenkins & Amanda Jenkins

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I cried every episode I saw, for sure, of the first 3 seasons. It was just so moving.

The show has never been more successful, and we've never had more attacks and pain and suffering, whether it's emotional or physical.

When you get to heaven, what is going to be your first question for Jesus? Why do you think that Jesus is still the most polarizing, controversial figure that, that there's ever been? You know, I even think about, you know, what's in light of what's going on in the world, everything from assassinations, what's going on in Israel and Palestine. Jesus is at the center of the conversations of so many of these things. What, why do you think that is?

Why is Jesus still divisive? Well, because he said he would be divisive. I mean, he actually said, like, that's true. He says, like, I came here with a sword. He's like, families will be divided. And the reason is because—

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Today I am super excited. We have Dallas and Amanda Jenkins. They are the creators of The Chosen series. Series. And today we're going to be talking about who is Jesus. We'll talk about the just incredible growth and impact The Chosen series had. We'll talk about a devotional that they lead and just answer a lot of questions that I think that a lot of Christians have, a lot of non-Christians have, talking about faith, talking about health and healing, and a whole lot more. Dallas, Amanda, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having us. This is actually our first time meeting in person. Yes, it is. I want to quickly share something, though, because I think your listeners and viewers need to know this about you. So I saw you commented or liked a post that I did or The Chosen did, and you had a blue checkmark. I didn't know who you were at the time, but blue checkmark, and I'm always intrigued, like, oh, I wonder who that is. And then I started watching some of your videos and saw who you were. And then I think I recognized you too, 'cause I'm like, oh, I've seen his videos before. And we were in the middle of, and still are in many ways, our daughter who has had essentially chronic illness for 6, 7 years. She has Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. Probably got POTS sometime in the last few years. I mean, it's just been a cornucopia.

A steady stream.

Of health crises that we have tried everything. And I just reached out to you, just direct messaged you, and I said, "Hey, I don't know if you check your messages, but it seems like you might be a fan of the show. I just want to let you know, my daughter, we've tried everything. My daughter is really struggling. Is there anything you can do?" A desperate dad's DM. I gave you my email address and you responded immediately and just said, "I'll just happily for free, just help you out and just give some advice." And so you've been so kind kind and gracious and generous with your time and putting together some protocols, and it's made a big difference in her life. And so slowly but surely, we have seen progress and change and improvement in her life. And you've been doing it as saying, like, well, you haven't met her. I mean, you're like, send me a picture of her tongue, describe the symptoms, like there's no limits. And so occasionally, even you were willing to go, we would say, oh, this thing, she didn't get better, or something, she had a quick pain when she tried that, and you're like, okay, great, so then let's shift to this. So you've been so patient with us, So you practice what you preach, and so it's been really great to just connect, and now we get a chance to meet in person and talk.

Yeah, well, thanks so much. You know, I think for all of us, and this is one of the things I love about you guys, is that we're all called to use our God-given gifts to serve others, right? And so I have, you know, I was telling my wife I was going to be interviewing you guys, which is such an honor. And, you know, The Chosen series has really blessed our lives. I mean, Chelsea and I grew up in Christian households and really just loving Jesus and devoted to our faith and wanting to expand the kingdom. But you know, like, watching, even though I had read so much of the Bible and read so much about Jesus, there was something just so impactful about The Chosen series bringing Jesus and the disciples to life. And I shared this with a friend recently. I said, you know, here are my top 5 TV shows of all time. The Chosen was on there, and I said, you know what's so amazing? Like, I cried Every episode I saw for sure of the first 3 seasons. And one thing it was, I intentionally wanted to really tap into and connect and create more intimacy with myself and with Jesus, but also it was just so moving being able to see Jesus in that, just I think in such a, again, we can never do it perfectly, but I think it became, there was something just so real about it. And so thanks so much for what you guys have created there. Amazing.

Well, that's the thing that 90% of the people who come up and say something about the show or thank us for the show or talk about what moved them about it, they all say some form of what you just said about the word real or human or authentic. One of those three words. It feels real, which is not something you traditionally say about a TV show because it would be assumed that it would be real. Meaning if I said, "You've got to watch Friday Night Lights," which is one of our favorite shows. It's so real. People are like, "Well, yeah, I know. It's about human beings. We assumed it would be real." —The problem is the vast majority of biblical entertainment over the last 100 years hasn't felt totally human. It's like even— I've always said we were trying to take Jesus off of stained glass windows and down from statues and just remind you of his presence here on earth and that he wasn't just something that you kind of keep at a distance or in some sort of religious structure. And you could have an intimate relationship with him. And oftentimes when he's on a stained glass window or a statue, there's a bit of a distancing effect, right? And even, I said, even when I would watch a lot of Bible movies or miniseries, it still felt like Jesus was a stained glass window. Yeah. Like it was, there was something formal and presented and yes, a little bit inauthentic about it. And I think what's really important to remember, even for those of us who have been believers our whole lives, but including those maybe who haven't been, is that this was real. Yeah. That this was authentic, that it actually happened. And there's something about seeing it and seeing the dust and seeing Jesus chuckle with his friends. At a wedding, he does a miracle because it's a favor for his friends, because his mom asked him to. Some of those things that you think could potentially detract from his divinity and his glory actually become the thing that draws you even more closer to it. That the creator of the universe was Emmanuel, God with us. It's not just a Christmas term. He actually, as Philippians said, did not count equality with God as something to be grasped, but he actually emptied himself, became a like became one of us for a time and experienced what we experienced. He just didn't sin. And so, when you really see what that looks like and sounds like, there's something about it that maybe doesn't bring the Bible to life because the Bible's always been alive, but brings us to life to understand and see the stories more fresh. And that's what we're hoping to do.

Well, and the flawed people around him, which is what I love that we've gone into what potentially could be backstories based on what we know biblically. So, we always say not everything in in the show is in the Bible, but it's all plausible according to scripture. And the idea that these people were so flawed and that they were called, you know, Matthew was called from a tax booth and Peter was called as a rough-and-tumble fisherman who really broke a lot of vases, as it were, like he's a bull in a china shop all the time. To see what that really was like and how flawed people were and that Jesus called them anyway and that Jesus used them anyway, and then to see Peter himself became the rock of the church. That didn't happen. It happens in a couple of page flips in Scripture. But so when you can actually kind of like extend that out and see the process of how God really changes us, how he makes us the things that we're not, you know, by the end of our lives.

Well, I think some people know this, not a lot of people know this necessarily, is this, that these, they were kids, you know, and they were flawed. And so, but a lot of times I think when we think about these disciples, we think about them at the end, not at the beginning of these, you know, incredibly virtuous, you know, Christ-following people.

But also even like age-wise, like you always see the portrayals, they're in their 40s. That's right. They're, you know, and I remember I heard someone tell me, he goes, before The Chosen, it always seemed like there were only 3 disciples whenever I'd watch a Bible show. There was Peter, he's the famous one. There's Judas, he's the betrayer. And then the other 10 were all one. Like they all look the same, talk the same. We don't get to know them. But to be remembered that they were actually human beings is a key element of it. But most likely they were teenagers. Or at least early 20s at the oldest, because most of them at the time would have been like, just having gotten out of, like, they didn't, most of them didn't go to, I'm blanking on the name of it, but the schooling, like the religious schooling. Hebrew school. Yeah, Hebrew. Well, they would have gone as younger, but like, the fact of Jesus, a rabbi would have been calling teenagers or early 20s at the most. And so, the fact that they were younger and uneducated for the most part, at least not in the formal religious training, was part of what I think makes the story so powerful.

Well, you know, and I think that gives us so much hope when we read about the disciples, we read about Timothy, but also what you've done in The Chosen and sort of bringing that to life. I think that, you know, I think that that really should be encouraging for people in high school, for people in college, for people in their 20s to think about, wow, what an incredible impact we can make. And I think maybe, you know, I think maybe this is also kind of the rising of The Chosen and some other things going on in the world. We see a lot of these revivals breaking out on campuses. I mean, it's really been amazing and encouraging. I mean, what do you guys think about sort of the reason for this new revival in terms of why? Because The Chosen is just, I mean, it's been really amazing. I want to say, and you can correct me on these statistics, I want to say it's like 280 million people and growing have watched the series. I mean, that's amazing. I was watching Joe Rogan And somebody brought up, "Hey, have you watched this Chosen series?" And the guy was telling him about it and he was like, like Joe Rogan was like shocked at just, you know, how many people had watched and just are raving about the series.

Yeah, I think that sometime 6, 7 years ago, God clearly has decided that at this time in the world he has something to say and that this is going to be a time when unlike anytime in the last 20 years or so, there's going to actually be a growth in hunger for God, right? I do believe that God often creates that hunger. We see that in the story of the feeding of the 5,000. He intentionally spoke for 3 days to the point where they were so hungry that he couldn't let them go home to get food because they'd faint along the way. Well, who's responsible for their hunger? It was him. He's the one who knew how hungry they were going to get. So, that's been a key life motto of ours in many ways is that God oftentimes causes the hunger. Yeah. Right. So that then when it's time to satisfy the hunger, he's the only one who can do it. So for whatever reason, he chose this time to, I believe, create this hunger around the world. And one of the coolest things that I think we've probably experienced, the greatest shout out that I've ever received, it was much greater than even Joe Rogan, was when the American Bible Society does their yearly analysis of Bible reading in the world, Bible sales. Bible sales had been down or stagnant for a long time. In the last couple of years, Bible sales are actually up 20%.

Can I tell you how I know that? I have a family member, brother-in-law, who I— when he married in the family, I wanted to get his name engraved, get it on a Bible and give it to him for Christmas. I ordered it like 3 months before Christmas and it took 6 months because the backorders were so far out for certain Bibles.

Yes. So they'd been noticing this and the American Bible Society gives their report and I had someone send me their report for this year and they're like, "Check out the first page." And in their opening paragraph or two, they're like, "We are seeing a revival. We are seeing Bible sales go up and shows like The Chosen have been a significant—" Like we're seeing, they're seeing that shows like The Chosen have had a significant impact on Bible sales and Bible reading. And so that was the greatest shout-out I've gotten. That's amazing. That's amazing. But then one of my favorite stories that we tell often is we met with the heads of YouVersion, the Bible app, right, that has half a— like, it's how many downloads? Like 500 million, something like that? So, so many. More downloads than The Chosen by far. But anyway, it's this global Bible app where you can— all the translations are there and it's amazing. And we were meeting with them to talk about some ways to collaborate. And they said one of the things that's really cool for us was, he goes, every day our engineers get together to kind of have a meeting about any mistakes that have been made or any things we can fix in the app or any app glitches or improvements we want to do or whatever. And they said we were having our meeting a couple of weeks ago and one of them said, hey, there's this glitch that's happening right now in the search. The search for Nathaniel is like gone crazy all in 1 hour. Like it just— so there's some sort of glitch happening and they're trying to figure out why that would be. Something's wrong. And then one of them goes, hey, wait a minute, actually last night The Chosen Season 2, Episode 2 came out, and it's the introduction of Nathaniel. Wow. And they're like, they realized that was causing this huge search for Nathaniel in the Bible app. Of all things, it made us cry. And I was like, I started crying. I was like, that story exemplifies, like, you couldn't be more perfect in what would be, what we would hope for. Yeah. Is that people see the show and they go, "Oh, wait a minute." Go back to their Bibles. "I need to go check that out." Yeah. So, whether you're a believer or not, I'm not responsible for what happens between you and God or you and the Bible or whatever as a result of watching the show. My job is to provide 5 loaves and 2 fish, and if God multiplies them, that's up to him. But when we hear that people are, whether it's believers or not, checking this out in the Bible and trying to make sense of it and trying to understand it more and reading what they're seeing in the show, it's pretty— you pretty much can't get cooler than that.

It's amazing. It's amazing. You know, one of the things I so appreciate too is that, you know, when I when I was growing up in the '90s, we had most of the— a lot of the TV shows had a moral of the story in the writing, right? And you know, whether it was everything from, you know, Step by Step to Full House to Fresh Prince of Bel-Air or Family Matters. I'm just thinking about like the Thank God It's Friday sort of stuff. TGIF. Yes. TGIF. Step by Step. So good. And but today there's none of that. I mean, like, we rarely ever have that. And so one of the things I love about the way that you wrote, And actually, I have a— this is kind of like a multi-part question here. One, what did you learn from your dad when it comes to storytelling? And also, you know, again, like I feel every time I watch The Chosen, it's so moved because there's so much— such a level of like redemption, like of goodness that are happening in the show when I can hardly think of another show out there, like not a single one that's actually doing that right now.

There's been the rise of the antihero. That's right. Exactly. Which oftentimes makes for some great tell— I mean, some of my favorite shows that I've seen are, I wouldn't say are necessarily about redemption. Sometimes— We're not going to necessarily recommend them here. Yeah. I'm just saying sometimes you can make great art that doesn't necessarily put a spotlight on redemption. And there are times when even that can be a positive contribution towards kind of showing what the world is like without God and how flawed as human beings we are. But it's gone so far to where Now, at least in mainstream entertainment, having a positive redemptive moment is almost considered cheesy, overly sentimental, and some of the great shows that arose over the last 20 years, Mad Men, The Sopranos, Succession, they all celebrate this kind of anti-hero thing. The problem with that is that when that's all you see, when that's what's getting the most celebrated, getting the most awards, getting the most attention, you start to— and you know this as well as anyone— how a lot of times with the mind-body connection, you can start to take on the things that you're seeing or take on the things that you're thinking. And some of the most powerful ways to reverse that is to start to just shift your own narrative in your mind even before it's true in your body, right? And what's happening is we're watching so much entertainment that is all reality shows as well, you know, trash TV, all that kind of stuff. You start to think, oh, is this— this is what life is. Life is, is the anti-hero. Life is no redemption. Life is— Self-absorption. Yeah. Conflict, all that kind of thing. And that the good wholesome message that you're getting from the media and from commercials is, "Be yourself. Do what feels good. Just do you. Just do it. Find your own path." Everything is about the celebration of self. Right? So all that to say, What I feel like I wanted to do with The Chosen is in telling the greatest love story of all time and in telling the greatest act of redemption by— if we don't sugarcoat the reality of the need for God, like if we— because that's the problem with a lot of faith-based entertainment is it sugarcoats reality. So, people go, "Well, that doesn't feel real either." That's right. That's my experience of chronic illness or my experience of addiction or of divorce or of abandonment or whatever. I feel like when I'm watching faith-based entertainment, God isn't the God of true devastation and pain. He's the God of someone who's struggling with something at school, or they're having a surface-level marital issue. And what we want to reveal is that God is the God of the least of these, of the deepest and darkest struggles that we have. And so, my point in saying all that is to— by not that oversentimentalizing, if that's a word, I think it is, sentimentalizing?

It is now.

Okay, you're a doctor, you're supposed to be smart. You can sign off on that, right? Oversentimentalizing the struggle and the question and the doubts and the struggles that people have. If people can see authenticity in that portrayal, then maybe they'll connect with the answer to those struggles. And so our show is ultimately quite redemptive. Of course, it's about Jesus. And it's ultimately about true hope. But we don't shy away from the challenge and the struggles either. And so the questions that we raise on the show of the question of healing or lack thereof, the question of poverty, the question of physical torment, the question of demonic activity, all of those things that people can struggle with are gonna, if they can truly identify with what was happening even 2,000 years ago, then they will identify hopefully with the answer to that. And so that's the key to the show.

Well, let's talk about healing for a minute too, 'cause this is something right before we started recording, that we were all talking about. And, um, and, and there's a lot of people that watch the show that, uh, are— well, of course everybody's into health, right? I mean, most everybody's into health. A lot of people love to hear about faith, but, but healing is a, is something that, you know, there's a lot— you know, I just know there's a lot of people who have autoimmune disease, a lot of people IBD, a lot of people have cancer. There's a lot, there's a lot of health struggles that people have, and And sometimes they've prayed for healing and they haven't been healed. I remember early on in season 3, you got— there was a scene with, I think, little James, and he has this, you know, conversation with Jesus about healing. Maybe you can even walk us through that and why you guys chose to have that even in the show.

So, you know, I believe in a God who walks on water, right? Amanda and I believe God heals, still heals today, can heal, has the power to. I mean, it would be nothing for God to just reach down with any, including our own daughter, and just go, "You're healed." And it's happened and it still happens today. We know that that's possible. We believe in that. We also believe that God allows and can even have a hand in suffering, have a hand in some of the struggles that we go through. And one of them that put a spotlight on that is that when we were casting The Chosen, this actor sends in a tape, an audition tape, and I'm just seeing him from the neck up. His name is Jordan. And he did a really good job. And then I met him in person for our second round of auditions, and he walks in and he's got a severe limp. He's got disfigured hips. And he's clearly got cerebral palsy. And it's like a combination of cerebral palsy—

Some issues with the spine.

Spina bifida. Not— is it? You're going to say it wrong. I'm going to say it wrong. Yeah. But it's— he's got an interface.

It could be stenosis. There's a number.

Okay. Yeah. So, but he's— and he's—

Oh, scoliosis is what he has. Scoliosis.

So, his whole has struggled with this, is a believer. And he walks in and he's limping and I go, "Oh, I didn't know that." And he does another great audition. And I'm like, "Well, I really would love to cast him as little James because he's abnormally short as well because of the handicap." And I start immediately, I saw what that would mean. I'm like, if I'm going to cast a physically handicapped disciple, most likely Jordan isn't going to be healed on this side of eternity. At least, I mean, he could, But it's unlikely, we would say, who knows? But if Jesus is healing on the show, and he's got this disciple who's with him who's clearly not healed from a physical malady, how am I going to address that?

How do we grapple with that?

I'm going to be painting myself into a corner here because I've got to address that. And I decided to go ahead and do it and say, at some point, we're going to have to face this head-on, this theology of, A, when Jesus was on earth, Did he heal everybody? Like, and there are people who believe that just all the hospitals basically in the area that Jesus was basically had no need to exist because Jesus was just healing everybody who needed it, or at least, very least, healing everyone who came to him. Now, that's debatable. We know there's other experts who talk about that Jesus at times didn't go to a certain town or didn't heal or whatever. We're not gonna get into that, but the point is, I believe over the course of history and over the course of the Bible, it's clear that God does not heal everyone. Even when they ask for it, even if they have faith. We know people like Joni Eareckson Tada and Gary Vee, and not Gary Vee, Nick Vee. Gary Vee is social media.

I was like, what are you doing?

Nick Vee, who no arms, no legs, extraordinary faith. You can't tell me that the reason he hasn't been healed is because he's a Christian.

Who believes that God could and says that he keeps a pair of shoes in his closet.

Just in case God's ready.

Because he believes that God could. And yeah, and so, and that there are these people that have either suffered some kind of, you know, Joni suffering some kind of an accident or were born a certain way. And then, you know, you have this very large group of people within the Christian community that believe if you have enough faith that you will be healed, you just have to ask, all you have to do is ask. And those are diametrically opposed. And not only that, but painful for people who have a pair of shoes in their closet, who desperately want arms and legs and have asked earnestly and who have been told no or not yet. And just some backstory for us, we have an autistic kiddo who when she was 4 was still nonverbal, and she ran up to me at a birthday party and communicated how she did, talking to me, asking me for something, but how she did it, and I responded to her and she ran away. And a friend said, "Oh, what's the situation there?" And I was like, "Oh, she's autistic. Are you asking about that?" She's autistic and she's learning words, but they're coming slowly. And she basically, I think her intentions were good, but she basically was like, "Well, you should be asking in faith. God doesn't want that for her. You should be asking in faith for God to heal her." And I had a, I think, had a pretty grace-filled response and was like, "Okay, thank you for that input." Then I felt real challenged by the Lord later of like, "You know, you haven't asked. You haven't asked that I put words in her mouth." That was what our big struggle was at the time because she was talking with such a challenge. So I asked earnestly. I was like, "Oh, okay, I'm being convicted. I'm going to ask. Maybe I'm going to experience this miracle." So I asked God to put words in her mouth. And I went into her room that morning after some time in prayer and there weren't words in her mouth and it really messed me up because I thought you actually prompted me to ask and the answer essentially was no. And so we spent a number of years grappling with that very thing and for me, my takeaway from that was, do you have the pair of shoes in the closet? Do you believe that I could? Are you asking me to? And are you also willing to accept my answer, right? It was all the things. So we really, I really had to work my way through that. So then cut to years later, another one of our kids develops this chronic illness. And I've asked and asked and asked and asked, and we've been pretty open about it in our podcasts and interviews and stuff. And you have the people that come and say, you're not asking. 'Enough in faith. You need to have more faith.' And so, I'm now round 2 of being told this. You kind of go, 'Okay, I have a very well-rounded theology on this now.' But you can be knocked off your feet fairly easily. So, in doing this—

All of this leads into, while we're making this casting decision, and as someone—

Yeah, this is all our backstory that we're bringing to this story we've been entrusted with.

And people who watch and listen to your show, just also need to know, like, we're with you. I believe that prayer and that a relationship with God can be a significant tool in your healing journey, whether it's cancer, whether it's chronic illness or whatever. We are not of the belief that God just, like, he loves suffering and he, you know, that he's, you know, going around going, "All right, you have cancer, you don't, you do, and I might heal you, I might not." Like, I'm very much— our Christian theology is very much that God is the creator of the universe and has providence over all things and can heal and does heal. And I do believe in even just like when you're giving, even when you were like helping us with Maya, some of the advice you were giving wasn't just food. It wasn't just exercise, which a lot of the things we were already doing, but also like, okay, your relationship with Christ, like, are you surrendering? Are you calming and looking for that peace that passes understanding? We believe in all of that. And yet we also know that there are times when the healing doesn't come, and at least on this side of eternity. So that came into all of that. So then I decided to cast him. And in season 3— this is a very long answer to your question— season 3 is episode 2, when Jesus sends the disciples out two by two to have— who have the authority. And this is a moment in the Gospels that talks about where Jesus granted the disciples in that time temporary authority that was the same as his to heal, to cast out demons, all of things, we thought, okay, this is the time when little James would go, "Wait a minute, you're sending me out to heal." The inescapable time. "Even though I'm not healed." Now, I'm fully aware that the real little James might not have been handicapped, right? We'll meet him in heaven someday and he'll be like, "I'm, you know." We took a little creative liberty there. Yeah, but when we cast him, but the theology that when little James comes to Jesus and says, "Okay, why are you asking me to heal?" 'Why are you asking me to heal others? And why am I seeing you heal other people and I'm not healed?' And what we— in the scene that I wrote, it was Jesus says that, you know, 'Yes, you would have a great story to tell if you were healed. That's a great story. And I've given people, a lot of people, that story. I've healed many people. But also think of the story you have when you're faithful to me and you follow me even when you're not healed.' And many times, and Nick V talks about this all the time, a man who has no arms, no legs, and he says, "I've seen way many more miracles through my speaking and lack of arms and legs." The encouragement and the preaching that he's done around the world and the access that he's been given and the people who have come to God— Because of his condition. Because of his condition and his faithfulness and his trust in God in spite of that. As many more miracles than if God granted me arms and legs, right? And so the notion that sometimes God trusts us with a malady, with a suffering, because of what we may go through in that time and what we may be able to do in others, in our discipleship, going through that struggle, whether we come out of it or not. I mean, Joni Eareckson Tada, still, you know, she's prayed for healing many times, but is still suffering regularly in her life. And yet her ministry through her suffering been way bigger than any ministry she could have ever had if she had been healed or had never gotten the malady in the first place, right? So we close with this in the scene where Jesus says to little James, "Little James, you are going to be healed. It's only a matter of time. There is a time when you will leap like a deer." And as Isaiah says, "You will leap like a deer and you will be running through fields." And so we have to kind of get outside of the temporary perspective and think on the eternal perspective and live in that eternal perspective and know that, oh, there will be a time when our her daughter is fully, fully in her realized kind of created self. But right now on this side of eternity, on Earth, not yet.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it reminds me of a C.S. Lewis quote and he says something to this extent, "The people that do the most in this life are the very same people that think the most about the next life or live with that eternal mindset." And I think that that's a great example of that. It's a powerful example.

I'm curious from you, like, when you saw that scene as as a guy whose life, your life's work is helping others heal. And as a believer, someone who you have no doubt seen many people be healed through prayer, you've probably seen many people healed through miracles, many people healed through traditional medicine and holistic healing. And then I'm sure you've experienced where it's like, it didn't work at the pace that you thought.

Well, let me tell you what was really interesting for me with that is I was overcoming my own major, major health battle, the biggest I'd had in my life, I didn't— and I think I maybe shared this with you one time, but I had a spinal infection and I didn't walk for a year and I was just on a walker. And I was actually having a little bit of a spiritual battle where I was believing and I felt like God was— I was believing I was going to get back to 100%, but the thought I had to keep creeping back in my head was, you'll never be back at 100%. You might get 50, you might get 70, you'll never be back. And that's when I was watching that scene, to be honest, and to me it was this thing where it was like, you know what, I think the thing that I walked away with was listen, we're called to live out having faith and hope and love, right? And so whether I will be healed or I won't be healed, it's actually less about that, it's more about just having a faith in God and understanding that he works out all things for good. And so, but I, you know, I regularly work with some of the hardest conditions. I mean, a lot of times I'm like the 10th or 20th person that somebody has come to see. And sometimes they have seen conventional doctors. They've seen a lot, maybe even a lot of other natural doctors. And so it's— and so there are— we know that there are a lot of conditions that are incredibly hard, incredibly challenging, and some that are genetic that without a supernatural miracle will not be healed. And so I think for me, I love the scene. I was so grateful for the scene because I think it gives a lot of people peace. I think it gives a lot of people, I think it does bring in that idea of understanding. Again, I thought the scene was just perfect from the standpoint of the quoting of Isaiah there, because I think bringing people back to this eternal mindset is, I think it's so powerful.

Because we heard from literally thousands and thousands of people who said that scene, For decades, I have sought answers from pastors or, you know, about why I'm struggling or why I'm suffering or why I'm going to be in this wheelchair or whatever. And that scene helped me understand for the first time and felt seen. I felt seen from, you know, for the first time. And I would just say, you know, even though that scene, that dialogue of Jesus and little James talking isn't directly from the Gospels, right?. But I do believe it's scriptural. I do believe that when you read the totality of the Bible, you see a God who, throughout the course of time, a God who has his hand in everything, including suffering, and who's just— he's simply getting us on an eternal perspective. And that was the biggest thing for me, is because I don't want people to be discouraged from still seeking healing and still seeking and asking and asking. Like, God still wants that engagement with this. But because Jesus in the— we filmed this, this is in season 5, Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, based on scripture when he's saying, "Can you take this cup from me? Is there another way?" I mean, he's genuinely— I don't want to do this. And the reason we know that, because some scholars are like, "Well, that was a metaphor for something else. And Jesus's will is always inextricably linked to his Father's will." Like, well, yeah, for the most part, but he actually says after that, he He goes, "But not my will, but yours be done." So, when he teaches the Lord's Prayer and says, you know, "Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name." "Your kingdom come." Yeah, "Your kingdom come, your will be done." And he's teaching that to the disciples. He experiences that himself, where he has to say to the Father, "I want one thing, but I want more your will. Your will be done." 'Not mine.' Yeah. And so, uh, I think as long as we maintain in the process of whatever healing journey we're on, or whether we're on a journey that, that's going to ultimately, uh, continue in heaven, um, that we are asking for your will, not mine. I do want healing. I do want to have a relationship with you. I do want to be engaged with you. I do trust that you are the God of healing, but ultimately, not my will but yours. And I will look for other types of miracles that could be taking place as well. Even if the miracle of my leg being straightened or whatever doesn't take place, that doesn't mean that there's not miracles taking place in the midst of that.

Yeah, of that journey. Do you have unexplainable illness, hormone dysfunction, weight loss resistance, brain fog, and you're tired of being dismissed when you know something isn't right? Well, get my at-home testing of targeted biomarkers, including hormones thyroid, and metabolism, plus a full hour with one of my senior health advisors to help you understand your results. The truth is, your doctor's probably reading your blood work all wrong. They're missing the cellular issues behind the symptoms. This new testing flips the script. The future of interpreting test results is here. I'm currently offering a simple at-home blood test that actually tests for the right things, and just as importantly, it comes with proper interpretation of your results. If you want to check it out and grab one before they're gone, just go to mybloodwork.com now. I love that. You know, there's a couple scenes that I— there, there are— I should say a couple— there are probably hundreds of scenes that I, I, I just so appreciate it as I've watched the series. You know, the one that really maybe struck me the hardest, I think, was there's a, uh, there's the episode where Jesus is healing hundreds and hundreds of people, and then the disciples are fighting. And at the end, you know, he gets back and he just is so fatigued. He's just wiped out and just crashes, and his mom and, you know, Mary goes and just, you know, takes care of him. But it was so convicting, I think, for me, and I think, you know, there are constant theological debates going on, whether it be within Protestantism or Protestant Catholics and Orthodox. I mean, there's these constant debates going on. And there's that scene, and there's also a scene when he is talking to Matthew and he is writing the Sermon on the Mount. Yes. When you see them again passionately sometimes debating things as well. What's your— and I know you've taken a lot of criticism and a lot of praise as well with the show. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, so one thing at a time. You talk about Season 3, Episode 2, or no, Season 2, Episode 3. That's when, yeah, that Jesus is healing people. And it's just like one verse in the Bible where it says, "And Jesus healed hundreds of people. They all lined up." He's healing all these people. And I thought, what would it have been like for the disciples, like, taking turns helping and what they're like backstage and what they're discussing? Backstage. And as he's healing, they start They start arguing about the Messiah and their own lives, and they start bickering and bickering and bickering. And then Jesus just walks by and says, "Good night," as he heads to the tent. And they see him covered in blood and sweat from having exhausted himself serving others. And without saying anything else, they were convicted of, "Here we are arguing and bickering about things." And that is what, you know, obviously the message of that is like, are we focused on the right things, right? Are we focused on the main thing, serving others? That leads to, yes, the fact that even on The Chosen, there are many people who argue and there's a lot of theological debates and we've gotten tons of criticism. The scene that you're bringing up is when Jesus is preparing the Sermon on the Mount, we portray him as kind of working through what he's going to say. And there are some people who were bothered by the notion that Jesus would ever have to take any time, yeah, or prepare.

Or even ask other people's thoughts on great theology or whatever.

We show him with Matthew, and they're kind of working on it together. Now, in Season 5, we talk about what we were intending with that scene is that one of the biggest ways that Jewish rabbis teach is by asking questions. And by having their students kind of work through them, work through things with them. And so Matthew says to Jesus in season 5 of our show, he says, "Thank you. I know that when you were asking for my opinions on the Sermon on the Mount, you were doing that to teach me. You're getting me to think," because he wants them to be— he wants us to be engaged with him. But all that to say, 8 years ago, when my career failed, and I had this big movie that released nationwide, and it was a total bomb. And I didn't know if I was going to make another movie or TV show. And that's when— it's a long story, but that's when that concept of my job is not to feed the 5,000, it's only to provide the 5 loaves and 2 fish. God told someone to tell me that from across the world. And I got on this plan, this life plan for the first time in my life, where I truly stopped focusing on the results, truly stopped focusing on my drug of choice, which was affirmation. Affirmation is what fed me legitimacy. I wanted to be legitimized. I wanted to be successful. I wanted to be affirmed. All those things mattered to me. And, and I was in a business that was measured by numbers. And so I got on the 5 and 2 plan. I genuinely surrendered and genuinely said, okay, from now on, I'm going to bring 5 loaves and 2 fish. I'm not responsible for the feeding of the 5,000. "Listen, if you want to multiply the 5 loaves and 2 fish, that's on you. But when I deliver my 5 loaves and 2 fish and you deem them worthy of acceptance, the transaction is over." It became a superpower. So, I truly, genuinely care about what God thinks. Second is Amanda. And after that, I really genuinely don't care. Now, that's not to say that wives don't want—

It's not to say you don't have your boyfriends.

I mean, I came to you for advice. I mean, I still want advice from people in life. There would be all of those things. And I don't want—

The biblical scholars that we have on the show.

Yeah, and I don't want to make a show that no one watches and that just offends people. But I'm just saying, if I honor God first, and if I am faithful to the character and intentions of Jesus and the Gospels when I make this show, then I genuinely just can't focus on what others are thinking. And not to try to tie it into what you always talk about with your podcast of the mind-body connection, but my desire for affirmation would lead to physical things too.

Well, it was the first thing that jumped to my head when you said that is people pleasing is incredibly toxic to really your digestive system, your immune system. I mean, it's very, very hard on it. Very. You literally probably couldn't do what you do. You'd eventually just have health ailments that would keep you from— Well, yeah.

And I remember there was a time when I was— all full disclosure here. Really?

Authentic? Yeah.

Okay. Struggled with ED. Holy moly. And my counselor, I have a therapist in my life who, biblical counselor and stuff, who said, "Yeah, you're addicted to performance, right?" Yeah. Like, you want affirmation, but you're always performing. And sometimes your body goes, "We're done performing." And it creeped into my physicality.

I'm going like, "Sorry." So, okay, since we're on this road, What was so funny about it, walking his way out of that, 'cause it was like connecting your mind-body, right? So this is happening in my body. Where's my head at? Where's my heart at, right? And so his counselor helped with that. But then I learned to go, okay, when that occurs, we just have to stop and go, Dallas, give me a feeling word. What are we feeling? What's happening internally? Let's link up the mind and body. And as soon as he does, the problem dissipates.

Well, you know what's amazing? So I've worked with, I've worked with hundreds of women who were struggling with fertility and then were able to get pregnant. And you know the number one, and literally of all the things they can do, the number one thing that can help them is to stop trying so hard. I mean, it's just, it's things like that. I mean, it just, and we don't realize how, I mean, those different emotions or things we have, literally, they'll literally just shut down organs. I mean, shut them down. It's— I'm aware. Yeah, exactly.

True words of Derek Prince.

I do want to say something about Dallas. When Dallas walked in here, when you walked in here today, my first thought was, this guy is in great physical shape. You're really in great shape. I'm like, you know, you— yeah, and I told him, like, I thought you were a linebacker. So the guy's really in great shape.

I don't think I could do The Chosen, honestly, with all the demands of the show. I turned 50 this year, and I am a bit of a health nut. A bit of a— But at the same time, and this is an important talk, and you and I have talked about this, because when I first reached out to you, like my daughter, she majors in exercise science. That was her major. She is getting into physical therapy. I'm a health nut. It can also become an idol. Like for sure, my obsession with it is one of my biggest idolatrous things in my life. And now it used to be, motivated as much about affirmation and looking good and all that kind of stuff. I genuinely don't care as much about that anymore. It really is about like, for me to be able to do this show and to do all the things that we're doing, I have to be— my mind has to be sharp. And yes, my faith has to be sharp. And a lot of times you find people who are struggling physically, and that impacts their spiritual relationship with Christ and vice versa. So all that to say, When we got to a place where I'm like, I've got to get like the totality of my life, I'm so obsessed with affirmation that it is impacting me physically and my desire to perform is being impacted. And so what is it in my life that is causing some of these physical conditions? And so we took a hard look at that. But my point is genuinely not caring how the world reacts to you as long as you are faithfully honoring God, it really does have a huge impact on your physical life, on your spiritual life, but everything. And I truly got to that place when every time I'd have a little instinct to humblebrag or to try to get credit for something or to do a social media post and really hope that I game the algorithm to get more likes and all of those things, When I finally— for every time that would happen, I would replace it with scripture. I would replace it. I had my counselor give me some scriptures about finding my identity in Christ and fearing God more than fearing man. And I would just kind of repeat those verses. It really did slowly but surely replace my desires. Like, I became a different person in this regard.

That's amazing. For sure. And I think, too, when you were talking about that that scene where Jesus comes in and the disciples are bickering. It's really convicting sometimes watching chat rooms. I actually don't watch them very often. That is also part of the superpowers. You just don't look. Praise you don't really look at, and criticism you don't really look at. You look at your core group and people you're accountable to for content, right? And then the rest of it you don't really pay much attention to. But there was a time early on when people, fans of the show, were finding one another, and they were like, "We love the show. I love the show. I love the show." And then they started to find out they came from all these different denominational backgrounds. And then they started to go, "Wait, you're Catholic, but I'm an evangelical. Wait, you're this, but I'm this. Something must be wrong with the show." That was some of the conclusions, was something must be wrong with the show.

The show is unifying people. Because we're unifying. And that's not like, that means they must be watering down or it's too ecumenical or whatever. We'd be like, "Wait, you're not supposed to be in this room of—" "This is my Jesus.

No, this is my Jesus." And And so, one of the things I just learned early on is, first of all, I was a Pharisee a good chunk of my life, you know, tended towards judgmentalism, tended towards being hard on people, lacked grace. So, I come from a place where God's been working on me for a long time in this. But then when you see it like that, you just go, "Okay, all the more, Lord, like, give me a heart of humility," and just to focus on Jesus, just Jesus, because whether whether it's seeking affirmation or whether it's, you know, being self-righteous or whatever it is, Jesus breaks it all down. And it— I think that is what has allowed us— humbling over time has allowed us then to steward this project in a way that I don't think— I think it would have crushed you years ago, physically, spiritually, emotionally. And I think, um, I, I don't think we could have, um, ignored the criticism or ignored the affirmation in, in the way that able to now. And my favorite thing about Dallas a few years ago, when he was doing, he was filming the episode where it's the miracle of the fish. It's the very first season where Jesus fills the boat and then calls Peter and Andrew.

Peter's been up, Simon's been up all night trying to catch fish, hasn't caught a single one, and Jesus fills his boat.

And then later afterwards, he talks to Simon about how, "I'm going to make you a fisher of men." And we were having this stuff happen in chat rooms and certain people liking the show and but not liking who else was coming in. And he just really very clearly, he was like, "I think I've had my life mission clarified. I'm a gatherer. I'm just supposed to gather people to Jesus. That's all I'm supposed to do. I'm not supposed to judge who comes. I'm not supposed to throw any back or reject any." Jesus gave a parable about the fish.

He's like a fisherman who gathers fish and then they toss the bad ones back into the water. And he says, "That's how it's going to be at the end of the age. You're going to gather, you're going to be a fisher of men, and then the angels at the end of the age will sort the evil from the righteous." And I'm like, "Well, I'm not an angel at the end of the age." So my job isn't to sort the evil from the righteous. My job is to gather into a net as many people as I can towards an authentic Jesus. And then that's where the 5-in-2 principle comes in too, is it's not just about the numbers, but it's also about the result of the people in my life, the people who see the show, how they react to to it. I really just got to be responsible for, as the best I can, introducing them to an authentic Jesus.

Yeah, you know, I love that. You know what's interesting? So growing up, half of my family was Protestant, half was Catholic, and my grandma was super devout. My mom and grandfather, they were super devout. And so, I mean, there were some family moments. Lively conversations. Lively conversations. But, you know, like right now, like I'm very much at the place of, and I feel like the world is like this more now than it was definitely 20 years ago. And I think The Chosen has been part of this, but it's like, if you're Catholic, great. If you're Protestant, great. If you're Orthodox, great. Do you love Jesus, right? Are you serving Jesus? Do you have a relationship with Jesus? And I actually think personally, the Protestants probably got rid of too many of the, you know, of some of the powerful rituals, the practices. The practices, the rituals. Like even confession, I'm like, I need to do confession. I just have a practice of confessing more. It brings a level of humility for me. So anyways, all that being said, I do think it's done an amazing job of helping bring people together in that way. I want to ask you something. You know, one of the things when I'm counseling somebody with their health, I really try and do it from the physical standpoint, but also that mental and spiritual standpoint. And one of the things I think people often— that makes them ill and that doesn't allow them to have full health or just life is a lot of identity issues, a lot of how maybe they see their own story. You know, a lot of times people see themselves as the victim. Like, I have a lot of people, they get in and they feel like, "I'm a victim." And they never get out of it. And they'll start to identify saying the biggest part of their identity is, "I have cancer or fibromyalgia or autoimmune disease." And it literally is the number one part of their identity. One of the things that you've done such an incredible job of, and by the way, this is so many years ago, I know your dad had a course on writing.

That's right. So you asked me earlier, I never answered that about my dad.

But I did want to say this.

So he wrote the Left Behind books. He's written over 200 books.

He's got a writing course. So I read those books in high school and college and loved him, the Left Behind series. And it was funny, I was meeting with Kirk Cameron here recently. He just moved to Nashville and he played the main character in one of those. But I But anyways, you know, like I had watched this video series he did on just telling a great story, and of course, the Bible tells a great story, but also share with me your thoughts on how can you telling a great story or series telling a great story also help people think about their own lives, thinking how can I live out a better story with my life?

Yeah, no, that's a great question. Yeah, I mean, that's been one of the things that has been really revelatory for us. When you're tasked with stewarding the portrayal of the life of Jesus to the world, and I shouldn't say it "the" as though it's the only one. I just mean like, right now The Chosen is the current media portrayal of Jesus's life that more people around the world are watching. And when you're tasked with telling that story, you better know Jesus. As well as you can, right? So, it's forced me to— I'm grateful for it. It's forced me to dig in even deeper into the Gospels. And I'm like, "All right, what's the understanding behind this?" And the thing that has really, I think, captured and changed us in many ways is, like you just said, the story of Jesus is ultimately a story of humility. I mean, he humbled himself to become one of us. And then while on earth, kept saying— they kept expecting him to be the leader, kept expecting him to be the Messiah who's going rescue them from their earthly oppression. And he's like, "No, no, no, that's going to happen. There's always going to be struggle. There's always going to be pain. There's always going to be oppression. I'm not here to actually overthrow the Romans. Go ahead and actually pay your taxes." And they were like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, so you're clearly not the Messiah because you're not rescuing us." And he's like, "No, I'm rescuing you from spiritual death. I'm here to give you heart salvation, eternal salvation." And so, it was constantly humbling himself, even in season 5 where we show the Last Supper. And when Jesus went to go wash their feet, and they were like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, no, no, that's actually offensive. It's borderline obscene for a teacher to wash his students' feet." And Peter says, "I'll never let you do that." And Jesus says, "Well, then you can't have no part of me." And then Peter goes, "Oh, then wash everything.

Sorry, take it back." "I'll wash my head." Exactly.

So my point is the constant humility, the constant surrender, the constant death of self, the constant not my will, but yours. And when you, like, telling Jesus' story has in many ways informed our own story. The constant following of Jesus' story should in turn help you go, "Okay, what does it mean to look more like Jesus?" So, we have examples in the Gospels of almost everything you can face, Jesus faced in some way. Yeah. So, how do we face suffering? How do we face struggle? How do we face pain in our own story? Well, you can look at Jesus, who on the cross faced the most pain that anyone can physically experience. The most oppression, the most betrayal, the most misunderstanding. I mean, how much do we hate being misunderstood? How many times have you heard someone recreate what you said and get it wrong? How many headlines have you seen about yourself? We see headlines headlines all the time where I'm quoted. It's like, "Jenkins says, quote, this." And I'm like, "That's not actually what I said." And no one was more misunderstood than Jesus. No one was more oppressed. No one had more physical pain. No one had more mental anguish. I mean, you see him in the Garden of Gethsemane, you see the loss of his friends. And every day he sees he's rejected. And how did he respond? Well, he gives us the example of humility and surrender and, "Forgive them, Father, for they don't know what they're doing." Like that is, it's a cliché, but, you know, trying to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and walk in those footsteps and to live out what his story is, what should inform your own story. And so that's what we've learned through writing the show and working on the show. And Amanda with her Bible study, Amanda handles the Bible studies. You've got one right, actually right next to you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to ask you about this. I got to be honest, like, and I'm really surprised I didn't know about this. And so it made me feel like, well, we got to tell people about this. Because I, yeah, I think as you watch the show, there's such a deep connection. And obviously there are so many, it's so scriptural in terms of there's so many verses. There, obviously there's, yeah, these are all, these are, many of them are scenes that are taken directly from the Bible. And then there's a Bible study here.

Yeah, but your point is there's a large chunk of the show that isn't directly from Scripture. I mean, we say that, we say that right up front. We're like, look, we are not the Bible. The Bible is the Bible. Your Bible hasn't changed since the show came out. We're not replacing the Bible. We're not changing anything. But we do the majority of the content that you see. Anytime Jesus says hello to someone, that's not directly from Scripture. I mean, he didn't say hello in Scripture. So we are quick to point out to everybody, it's a TV show. It's inspired by the Bible. Our goal is to put a spotlight on the Bible. But the Bible study that you were talking about, we do a Bible study for each of the seasons that Janda is the lead writer for. And we often say the Bible study isn't a supplement to the show. The show is a supplement to the Bible study. The show is designed to point you towards Scripture and to put a spotlight onto scriptural truths. And so, what the Bible study does is when you watch an episode of The Chosen, it can be a launching point for you to then explore deeper what this came from, what the context was, because our 21st century American interpretation of books that were written, in the case of the Gospels, in the 1st century through Jewish mindset of Matthew, Mark, and John. And this, the people that were reading this at the time were Jewish, understanding some of these references that we would never understand if someone wasn't here to kind of help us see the cultural context, the historical context of some of these teachings. That's what can really help bring it to life. And so, the Bible study is like, now you've seen the show and you want to go deeper. You want to see some of this context. You want to see what these Bible verses mean. You want to see where the scene came from, and the Bible study helps you go deeper into that. And so, that's the key with her writing of the Bible study and the devotional books we do. We also have some devotional books. And my writing of the show with my co-writers is the whole purpose is how do we accurately capture the character and intentions of Jesus in the Gospels, even in those scenes that aren't directly from Scripture.

You know, I don't think a lot of people realize that you have a whole team of people and some theologians. Yeah, yeah. These are Bible experts that are weighing in on the whole series.

Yeah, yeah. We've got a— you can watch on Prime Video or The Chosen app where you can see our after shows, but also we have in The Chosen app Bible roundtables where we take our Bible experts who've read the script, scripts and then watched the final version of the show from our company. And then Come and See, which is the nonprofit that finances the production, they have their own team of global, you know, international scholars, because sometimes when you translate something from English into like another language, some of the references can get confused. And so, sometimes translating it into another language requires a biblical expert to go, "Here's how to communicate this truth to a person in a country that wouldn't necessarily understand the concept of a sacrificial lamb, so, or whatever, some metaphor that Jesus used that when it's translated into another language might get lost. So, we take this very, very seriously. And they watch the— they read the scripts and then they watch the final shows to let us know if there's anything that we know sometimes won't be directly from Scripture, but we never want it to violate or contradict the character and intentions of Jesus in the Gospels.

Well, you know, I'm obviously I'm obviously a big food person. And so I appreciate, I mean, that's very accurate, I think, in terms of, you know, we got all our pistachios and, you know, tabbouleh and hummus and tahini and everything, figs and everything else there.

Yes. And I, as someone who eats pretty clean, unless I'm cheating, which I do more than I should, but I eat pretty clean. Whenever we're doing those scenes, I am always like, I'm like, "Oh, give me the protein." I'll be fighting over the popcorn. Indian foods. I've never been surrounded by so many. So yeah, because I'm a bit of a health foodie guy, we make sure we get those accurate. It's so good.

It's so good. Well, I want to encourage people to check out the Bible study too. You know, I have— when I think about the times of my life where I've grown the most, definitely some of them have been when I've done Bible studies. I mean, Bible studies, when you're going through a, you know, the Bible together with a small group, it's so, so powerful for growth. You know, I know that When I was growing up, we always had church, then we had Sunday school. I don't even know if that Sunday school even exists anymore, actually.

It's rare for adults.

We had Sunday school and church and then Sunday night and Wednesday night. That's right. Wednesday night.

Yeah, we were there, man. And so, but this is such a great way to grow. And so you have these for every season, the Chosen Interactive Bible Study. Where can people get these?

Yeah, at our gift store through the app, and then it's on Amazon. Amazon and most bookstores as well. So, you just go to Amazon, you just look up The Chosen Bible Study or Chosen Devotionals or whatever. But these are going to take you deeper. We even have kids' versions so that kids can go deeper. So, great. We've got now coming out soon, depending on when you're listening to this, is The Chosen Adventures, which is our animated show. So, we've got a Chosen animated show that if you remember Season 1, Episode 3, when Jesus and the little children— Oh, yeah.

And there's those two— Joshua and Abby are our main characters.

Yeah, they're the main characters of The Chosen Adventures through the animated show. So, you start to see their whole, their lives, and they interact with Jesus and they interact with some of the stories.

We've got all some of the different— Yeah.

And so that's now on Prime, or coming out on Prime, and then eventually YouTube. But my point in bringing that up is, um, now we've got materials for children as well, so that you're as a family, uh, because some of the concepts in the Bible study, we go, we dive a little deeper, right? There's, there's a little bit more heavy, intense stuff and heavy, heavier theology that maybe some kids might not fully understand. So we've kids' versions as well so that we can help families just kind of dig in deeper because I remember when I was growing up, like you, Sunday school, church, Sunday night church, Wednesday night church. I will freely admit that there were times when I did not get excited about church. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Did not get excited. My mom would try to get us to do a family devotional after supper and we'd be like, "Ugh, here we go again," or whatever. And one of the coolest things that we ever hear is— we were actually just at my son's football game the other and the away team, it was a Christian school, and the away fans recognized me when I was sitting in the stands. And the coolest thing was there was kids like ages 8, 9, 10 who came up and were like, "Are you Dallas Jenkins?" I said, "Yes." And they said, "Oh, really? Can we get a selfie?" And that 8 and 9 and 10-year-olds truly like loving a show and engaging with a show. When I have parents telling me, "Our kids are now asking questions about the Bible and wanting to read the Bible." And when they read it, they're like, "Oh, that's Matthew from the show." And they ask questions. Questions, that's the coolest thing. And so The Chosen Adventures, the Bible studies, all that kind of stuff is designed for the Josh, Dallas, and Amanda when we were growing up. And sometimes we're bored. Sometimes we're excited about it. We're like, all right, there's other ways that maybe can give a fresh perspective towards the same thing that can maybe help your family dive a little deeper if you want to.

That's so great. You know, one of the things I follow you on social media or The Chosen on social media, and it It looks like there's just a great relationship between a lot of the people that are on the show. Would you share with us just maybe something, it could be out of the ordinary, it could be miraculous, non-miraculous, just something that's happened maybe behind the scenes on the show that this has impacted you?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, we really do try to establish a culture of kindness and of family as much as possible. It's a big operation, and I really try as a leader to exemplify the teachings of Jesus as much as possible. Servant leadership. Before every season starts, I always give a speech about, "Let's just be good to each other. Let's just be good to each other." We have a mix of people. We have people from all faith backgrounds and people with no faith at all. We have nonbelievers working on the show. The coolest thing that happens that I would consider to be miraculous, and I won't name names because obviously these kinds of things are personal, but we have had multiple moments and you've seen them portrayed when you've watched the show, you just wouldn't necessarily know what was behind it. Multiple moments where an actor is doing a scene, and it inevitably happens when they're quoting scripture, like when they're actually saying the words of scripture in the scene, or when the character of Jesus is calling them to follow, or healing them of something, or challenging them in some way. In some way. And we've had multiple times where in the scene, an actor, performer will start crying, you know, almost uncontrollable. Overwhelmed. Overwhelmed when the scene didn't even call for it. And then just come up to after me afterwards and say to me, like, "I don't know where this is coming from, but I can't get through this." That wasn't my choice. Yeah, "I can't get through this moment without weeping. Something's happening." And that's happened with mind-numbing regularity over the course of seasons. Just, it's like, we can almost always tell, I can almost predict now, which scenes are going to cause actors from any faith background or lack thereof to be overwhelmed by the words of Scripture. That's amazing.

And the moments of Scripture. It's a good reminder for us too, as much as you care about the words that you write, that it's actually typically the words of Scripture that are actually—

Yeah, I mean, it's always a reminder to me, like, no matter how hard I work, nothing's going to work as well as the words of Scripture. And that's why the show is ultimately trying to spotlight those. Make— I want to be very clear, I'm not trying to replace Scripture. I say it all the time. In fact, In fact, before you even watch frame 1 of the show, we put up a disclaimer that says viewers are encouraged to read the Gospels. This is the point of the show. But one of the coolest things is that multiple actors have had this experience, but one in particular reached out to me just last year and said, "I'm a believer now, and I have you to thank for making the introduction." And we talked about that phrase, "I have you to thank for making the introduction." Is there any greater thing you can hear? Anything you'd more want on your tombstone stone. Then, you know, here lies Josh Axe. He made the introduction for people to Jesus, right? And then this person got baptized in our— this just a few weeks ago in our Sea of Galilee set. Oh, wow. Right before we filmed a— it's a spoiler, so I can't give it away.

Yeah, I was like, okay.

But a season 6 scene before we filmed it, but got baptized. And we've often said, look, we love how how much the show is impacting people around the world. We've heard from every country in the world, people who've had their lives changed. We love hearing that. But our number one, our kind of the, what would you say, the bullseye of our ministry or the ground zero for our, what we believe is our calling, is the people who we work with.

Ground zero of the ministry of the show are the people who work on the show.

The cast and crew and our staff, that's who we are focused on because those are the ones in front of us. That's our 5 loaves and 2 fish. The people who watch the show, most of which we'll never meet, God can handle that. But what we've got in front of us is to love on and serve unconditionally the people in front of us. And so the stories of faith that we've seen in our show, people coming to faith or people loving Jesus more and knowing Jesus more just within our own cast and crew has has been far more impactful and far more, I contend to be miraculous, than some of the cool things that's happening with the growth of the show or the box office or the number of viewers or anything like that is seeing from the actual making of the show. People within the show, people tasked with portraying the greatest story ever told are being caught up in the greatest story ever told.

That's so great. When you guys are hopefully a long, long, long time from now. What do you want people to say about the show?

Well, our operating principle when we first set out to make it was if you can see Jesus through the eyes of those who actually met him, you can be changed and impacted in the same way they were. If you can identify with the same questions, doubts, struggles that they did, then you can identify with the answer to their struggles, their questions, and their doubts. And so we hope that 100 years from now, you know, until Jesus comes, that yes, if we're long, long gone from this earth, that people, when they watch the show, are still seeing Jesus through the eyes of those who met him and are experiencing the same change that those people did, and that they can realize that the Jesus of 2,000 years ago is the same Jesus who wants a relationship with you now. Now, I'm not responsible for what God does in their hearts as a result of watching the show. Like, like Manda said, we're here, we're gathering. Our job is to gather. But I do hope that, you know, people who've watched even one episode know a little bit more about Jesus than they did before they started watching, or maybe are a little bit more illuminated towards something in scripture that maybe they hadn't quite noticed before, like what's happened to us so many times. So that's the hope.

That's That's great. I mean, what's been the best part of helping create the, the Chosen series and the Bible study and all? And also what's been the, the hardest part? As a doctor and a dad, I'm always looking for simple natural habits to keep my family healthy. And one of my favorites is Manuka Manuka honey. And it's not just any honey. This is the real deal. It's raw, it's never processed, and the jar I use has an MGO rating of 850+, the highest I've ever seen. That means it's packed with unique compounds, antioxidants, and prebiotics that help support the gut, the immune system, and even give you a boost of natural energy. Every single batch is third-party tested, certified glyphosate-free. Now you can scan the QR code on the jar and see exactly which beekeeper in New Zealand it came from. As a doctor, I absolutely love this transparency. And the taste— it's thick, it's creamy, it's almost caramel-like. My kids eat it straight off the spoon, and I'll stir it into tea. We add it to smoothies. I take it around my workouts for energy, or just enjoy it as a little afternoon reset. So if you're looking for a delicious, nourishing way to support your health and your family's health, this is one of my favorite go-tos. And honestly, it feels a little like a ritual of self-care. Go to manukora.com/axe to get 31% off plus $25 worth of free gifts. You'll get a jar of their high-potency MGO 850+ Manuka honey, 5 honey sticks, a wooden spoon, and a guidebook on how to use it. Go to manukora.com/axe to get 31% off plus free gifts with your Manukura starter kit today.

I would say, I'll do the hardest part first. I would say that it has put us in the front lines. I would say a lot of people are on the front lines in a lot of different ways in this world. We need one body, many parts. For us, it seems to have put a bit of a bullseye on the backs of even our children. Has been the hardest part for us personally. Not that everything is blamed on spiritual warfare, but there is a lot of spiritual warfare that we didn't have prior to this.

I mean, the moment we started doing the show, it is like our medical bills, I mean, it was like 20 years of living before that point, all of it combined didn't come close to the first year of doing the show. And it has been just every year since then. I mean, this year, the show has never been more successful and we have never had more attacks attacks and pain and suffering, whether it's emotional or physical.

And that's not just for our family, that's for a lot of the families. When you come to work on The Chosen, we joke and we call it, okay, there's a Chosen— the Chosen curse. We don't believe that there's an actual curse, but we do believe there's an actual bullseye. And so, if you kind of come close to what the Lord is doing in this space here, there's a lot of spiritual warfare. So, that's the hardest part. Maybe the answer would also be the best part because when you're on the front lines, you are getting to hear the stories of people being radically changed, and to know that you're just stewarding a thing that God is using in that way, it absolutely makes it worth it, and it gets you out of the dumb things of every day. Like you're hearing about people's real-life change and stories of rescue and what God is doing around the world, in the world. And then you just go, oh, this thing I was worried about is so dumb. Like, it just, it reprioritizes. And, and I, and I feel like it's, it's, um, it's allowed us to be very focused on what matters this side of heaven, um, because we are, uh, hyper-focused on, on helping more people get there, you know. And so it's just, it's so focused us that I would say that the good is the same as the, as the hard, and it all works together to go, yeah, we're We're in a war and I'm glad to be in it and I'm glad to have a role in it and we just want to steward it well. I would say both things are true.

Yeah, when our family knows, all 4 of our kids and our in-laws now, because our daughter got married earlier this year, but they all know that The Chosen has brought on some major challenges. But it does feel, it does seem to go away, it does seem to feel better when we're told, "My life changed because of it." You know, when you're in Brazil and someone walks up and shows you on their phone— Their Google Translate. —their Google Translate, you know, the story of how they identified with this character and felt seen and understood enough now, now know Christ because of it. It's like, it's worth it. It's worth every moment.

Yeah, yeah, that's so powerful. You know, one of the things that I have really loved about the show as well is this, you get to I just see in real life these people going all in, all in. And you know, Revelation, I think it's 3, but early on talks about sort of lukewarm Christianity. And have you had anybody share with you that just how it's caused them to go more, you know, absolutely all in? Any examples of that?

Oh, I mean, that's probably the most common is someone saying, I have attended church most of my life, or I have read the Bible before, or been— they may not use the word lukewarm, but I've been, you know, I've read the Bible, but it hasn't— I haven't fully engaged. I haven't fully, you know, dove in 100%.

Or even, I fell away, or had church hurt of some kind, or, you know, some bitterness that was holding me back, or, you know, a lot of that.

But, yeah, they'll say, I have never read the Bible more than I have in the last year, because the show, like, prodded me towards the Bible, prodded me towards a relationship with Christ. And so, yeah, I've actually heard the phrase "all in" before. People go like, "I feel like I'm all in now. Like, I am just, I'm diving in in my relationship with God in a way that I never have before." And so—

Our Christmas special is one of my favorite things, called "The Messengers." We did a Christmas special a few years ago, and it talks about how the these first disciples were the messengers of the good news, the messengers of the story of Jesus. And we have— Shepherds. The shepherds were. But then also, so were then the early church in Acts. And there's this phrase that is, "We are the messengers now." And it's to see that, like, for every generation, no matter, you know, you're living at a time that's very specific to God's design for you. So nothing that's happening in the world is outside out of his control. Nothing is too big for the Church of Christ to speak into, to work inside of. And so the idea that you were born for right now and you're the messenger now has been a really exciting and igniting thing for people who are watching the show, just being reinspired to get back into the culture with the good news.

Yeah, angels were, back in those days, they would refer to angels as messengers, right? I got a message. So that's why we call them the messengers, is Mary and Joseph get a message and then the shepherds see it and they start spreading the word and then the birth of the early church, they're messengers. And we're now 2,000 years later, that's us.

It's amazing. We have that opportunity. Why do you think that Jesus is still the most polarizing, controversial figure that there's ever been? I even think about, you know, what's in light of what's going on in the world about everything from assassinations, what's going on in Israel and Palestine, all of these very, very— Jesus is at the center of the conversations of so many of these things. Why do you think that is?

Well, Jesus gets co-opted a lot by multiple sides of political debates. Some sides like to quote the Scripture when it suits them, right? We quote Scripture to defend justice, for example, like criminal justice reform or whatever. And then others will use it to and universal healthcare. Others will use it to— like, we like to pick and choose which theologies we think Jesus would really back. Right. Yeah. And so, why is Jesus still divisive? Well, because he said he would be divisive. I mean, he actually said, like— That's true. He says, like, "I came here with a sword." He's like, "Families will be divided." And the reason is because, on one hand, yes, he showed an example of compassion and empathy and love.

And he welcomed people. He welcomed all people.

Yes. But on the other hand, he says, yeah, but to truly reach me, to truly reach the Father, to truly reach heaven, you have to give up everything. Yeah. Like, you have to be willing to die to yourself and acknowledge that you are not God. You are not the chairman of the board of— chairman of the board of your life. And that— I think there's two things that really cause division. One is we want to reject anyone who's telling us to give up something about us, much less everything about us. Like your instincts, your desires are not all godly. Like you're born into sin, you're born into selfishness. You are born, and most of us live, when we seek the things that are gonna give us immediate pleasure, when we seek the things that we want, when we seek the desires of the flesh. And then someone tells us, I mean, think of how often, like, even people people who aren't even doing it from a Christian perspective, but like those court shows like Judge Judy. Like, it's like, there are a lot of people who like hate court shows or advice shows simply because they're telling you, fix your life, stop doing the bad thing. Like, you are not your own God. You are not in control of your life. Like, stop being selfish, right? That's a message that a lot of people don't want to hear. Now, the second thing is though, is that we do fight for territory. We do as human beings love to fight for ownership of a thing or of a person, and so you see it when there's an assassination attempt, when there's a tragedy, when there's a success, how many people try to claim it as their own, and we've gotten really tribal. Like, it's now, we've gotten to the point where, and this wasn't like this even 50 years ago, but where you identify as being part of a team, and when you're on that team, If you say anything or someone in your team says something that another team might say, then that's immediately, oh, whoa, you're betraying us. You must be on that team. It's like all or nothing, now or never. That's what we, I call that the, like the, in politics and in social media, the all or nothing, now or never crowd. I mean, I'm sure you've said things on your podcast that someone's like, I liked you. I thought you were, I could trust you.

I said things, you know, a few days ago and they didn't, a lot of people didn't like, yeah. It happens, yeah.

And look, you have been a great presence in our life and you have helped us and we're friends and you've said things that I've been like, "Oh, I don't know that I agree with that," or "That wasn't my experience," and I still can like you and be your friend, and you can be wrong. But I'm saying— Thank you. Yeah. No, I'm saying I can be wrong. But my point is, is like, there are some people who that's not good enough. It's not— no, no, we can't just be friends and disagree. If you disagree, you must be evil. You must be on another team, and only the people on my team are are good. And ironically enough, that's what was taking place 2,000 years ago, more than almost any other time in history. When Jesus came to Earth, it was so tribal and everything was us versus them. And literally, the Romans were saying, we are going to turn everybody into one tribe, our tribe, the Roman tribe. We're gonna change your name, we're gonna change the name of your province, we're gonna change your, your, uh, your way of life, your culture, and make it Roman. And so nowadays, that's we see is, for whatever reason, when it comes to Christianity, when it comes to the teachings of Jesus, when it comes to spirituality in general, people want to claim it for their own team. And if you disagree with anything on their team, then you must be an enemy of God, right? And so you see it in politics, you see it in health, you see it— oh, I mean, and so again, why is that? I don't know. I think sometimes God God allows human beings to kind of pursue their own fleshly desires, and so that they can then turn to him when it doesn't lead to anything other than pain and suffering and dispute and war.

Well, and the other piece of the polarizing is not only do we co-opt it, but it also is that, as we mentioned, he divides in the sense that he looks right at, you know, his own disciple and said, "Who do you say I am? All these other people are saying who I am." 'But who do you say I am?' And I think there is in the human soul, I think people know that there's an answer required of them. I think he would be polarizing in an individual without even the tribes, because it's a, 'Who do you say he is? Do you think he is who he said he was, or do you think he was a crazy person?' And we all have to face the same question, so I think he's hard. He's not just loving and welcoming, he also kind of demands of us.

Yeah, no one comes to the Father, but through me. Yeah. And so people love to— we love the love, we love all the love teachings and all that Jesus was so compassionate. And The Chosen, like, look, I love portraying the loving and compassionate side of Jesus because I believe it's loving, compassionate, even in his message of repentance and surrender. But he does say, I'm the guy. Yeah. Like, I am the way, the truth, and the life. I am the way. "not one way," or "I'm one of the ways, I'm a way, I'm the way." And ultimately, when you come down to it, when you have to face that question and you realize, "Oh, wait a second, he's demanding surrender. He's demanding I bend the knee," and a lot of people don't want to bend the knee. Yeah.

When you get to heaven, what is going to be your first question for Jesus?

Jonathan? Who was right about that fight we had last week? No, I'm just kidding.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you please help Amanda realize that she was wrong? No, Jonathan Roumie actually stole my answer once. He was asked a similar question, and his answer was, "How'd I do?" And he was asking, "How'd I do, you know, portraying you?" But it has a double meaning. How did I do at portraying you, and how did I do at following you? And what do you want to hear more than anything else? "Well done and good and faithful servant." And so I will, when I get a chance to meet Christ, I will kind of come in going like, "I did 7 seasons, 56 hours of TV portraying your life." like, and I just so badly don't want him to be like, "Really? That one episode? What do you think? What were you even thinking?" You know, I just want to be like, I'd be thrilled with just a, "It's pretty good. It's pretty good." Yeah. Because you did ultimately point people to the Bible, and that's the ultimate source of truth and inspiration. But episode 7 of season whatever, that was a little janky. But I will ask, like, how did I do? Like, because I do want to hear, and I don't think he'll wait for my question. I think when we're granted acceptance into eternity, that's the answer to any question you could ever have is, "Okay, I'm yours forever," right? And so, yeah, but I will ask, "So how did I do?" I got a lot of people I got to ask that question of because we portray a lot of— A lot of those guys up there. Yeah, when I meet— I don't want Simon Peter to come running for me and going like, "Dude, way off. What are you doing? I wasn't like that." So, no, but yeah, But I definitely, I assume it's the same for you, yeah?

Yeah, I mean, it's hard to imagine asking how we did when we're in his presence. I'm going to be distracted by how he did.

That's a better answer. Yeah, that's good.

That's good. Last question, what's next? Well, let me say, I am really excited about, so I watched something you guys did maybe about a year ago that kind of went through through doing Acts, going back, I mean, doing a lot of other stories from the Bible. But yeah, what's next?

So, as of right now, as we're talking, a miniseries that we're doing with Prime Video called Joseph of Egypt about, you know, Joseph and the dreamcoat and all that stuff. That's being filmed right now. So, and while we're filming, we're still in the process of fine-tuning the script. So, I'm not the actual showrunner of that show, but I am the final say. I'm overseeing all of these projects, these Chosen projects. So, that's being filmed. So, it's an 8-part miniseries of the life of Joseph from the book of Genesis. And that's the story again, that was before the law came in. That was before Moses. That was before— like we get a chance to see kind of God's story, even before the Israelites were enslaved in Egypt. The Chosen Adventures, like I mentioned, that animated series. Is coming out here right now. And we are developing, we're in some discussions of a few other Bible stories. But what I want to do when I'm done with season 7 of The Chosen, after I nap for a couple months, is we want to get into the Moses story. Oh, wow. So, we have a 3-season show that we're planning on called Book of Moses, which is the whole story of Moses and the journey of the Israelites from Egypt. And then when that's done, that's 3 seasons, I do want to then get back into the continuation of this story, the Book of Acts, the birth of the early church. And so, some people are like, "Why aren't you doing Acts next? I mean, we want to continue." I'm like, "I think all of us need a break from each other for a bit." I think I want to get back, I want to, but leaving that aside, I really do want to, because we reference in Season 5 of the show and in Season 5 of this Bible study, we talk about like the Last Supper and how the Last Supper, the Passover and what that means and how they, when they were celebrating the Passover, the significance of the Moses story, and they reference it quite a bit. And so we want to kind of take a moment to go back and show you the precursor to Jesus and the why of Jesus.

I'm incredibly excited about the Exodus series. Did you ever watch The Daily Wire? They did their Exodus with Jordan Peterson. Yeah, of course. That was a great— I thought they did a great job with some of what they did there. Last question. I have a friend who's Jewish who knew I was going to interview and wanted me to ask you a question. Why don't you cast David to have red hair?

Okay. So, that is a fair question, although there are different interpretations of what color he might have actually been and what that description might have been. So, it's possible David had traditionally—

I actually kind of went round and round about this. There's just a lot of different interpretations of that, of the word that they use for it's ruddy or something. I think it's, isn't it ruddy?

Ruddy is one of the words. And like, it's just, again, there's lots of different interpretations of whether it just was referring to kind of a dark skin that looked a little different from the other skins. There's a lot of interpretations of David, but I thought Ginger.

You chose from who? Ginger David?

I'm not sure. I think that might have been a little bit hard for people to—

It would be a very specific thing in the cast. Casting room. So we, you know, you get a pool of actors, you choose.

Well, yeah, I think ultimately who's going to best portray the heart, you know, who's going to be the best person to portray David's personality. It makes sense.

We did actually go back and forth on that. What is it? And studied it. And it's debatable enough that we went with the dark hair. Makes sense.

Well, I'm sure whoever you guys cast would be great. Well, obviously, we go back in time and see— Well, we see Jesus.

Yeah, we see David in season 2 and then season—

loaves of bread from the priestly table.

Matthew 3, when we see that one Psalm written during the feeding, the walking on water.

When the women are dancing.

Women's dancing.

Well, wasn't the woman who was going to perform, this is when John the Baptist was going to be.

Yes. And then we also see David. The loss of the baby. Yes. When Bathsheba loses the baby. And also when they're walking on water, and we see the writing of the psalm that talks about walking footprints on the sea. And then in Season 5, when we contrast the triumphal entry of Jesus and David, the different entries, and then we'll get a glimpse of David in Season 6, which we just filmed. Excited. So David shows up throughout. And then there's also that great show, House of David on Prime, that Wonder Project made, my good friend John Erwin and I actually consulted on that show as well. Also not redhead. Not, they didn't go with the redhead, but yeah. One day.

No, I love it though. Well, I'm so appreciative for you guys. It's a, again, I think that the show has really blessed me, blessed my family. I know that there's so many people have been really impacted by it in a really positive way. And yeah, so just so grateful for you guys and, and even coming on the show. So it's an honor.

So thanks so much for coming on. Well, and you've been, like we said, we want your viewers to know that you do practice what you preach. You've been helpful.

It has been a gift.

When I mentioned to another friend of ours that we were going to be talking to you and we talked about how you helped our daughter just on your own free time and she said, "Yeah, he does that. He helps people." And so we really appreciated that and we have learned a lot from your show and from your writing and, and from your own personal help. And so we're very much a believer in mind, body, and spirit, that, that God is the God of all of these things and these all go together. And so we appreciate what you do. We're all doing this together. We're all trying to just, amen, bring it, bring, bring the kingdom, your kingdom come. And so anything we can do to be part of that, we want to be.

Amen. Well, I love it. Well, thanks so much, guys, for coming on. I just want to say, hey, thanks everybody for watching. I would encourage you to go go out and watch The Chosen series all the way through, or at least just start with episode 1. And when you watch it, really try and connect with the person of Jesus, the disciples, putting yourself in their shoes. Let it strengthen your faith. Again, for me and my wife, Chelsea, our family, it has been such a powerful way for us to connect more deeply with Jesus, understand the Bible in the context of what was going on in that day. So I encourage you to go and download the app as well. You can, you can check out a lot in there. And also, don't forget, um, while you are watching it, you can also, um, get the study guide as well. And this is found on amazon.com. You can get a lot of places, but amazon.com here, The Chosen—

you start calling it Amazon.com—

Bible study, Amazon.com. Just Amazon. Just Amazon. Just Amazon. You can get it there as well. You're revealing your age. Yes, that's right. Uh, and so anyway, thanks for watching. And if you're watching on YouTube, let us know what What was maybe one of the biggest things that really struck you about today's interview? Something Dallas said or Amanda said? We'd love to hear from you there as well. And thanks for watching. And by the way, the number one thing you can do to support the channel is subscribe. Thanks for subscribing and thanks for sharing. There's a lot of people I think that could really benefit and be blessed by so much of the, just the personal content that was shared today by Dallas and Amanda. So thanks so much for watching. We'll see you on the next episode.