What the Bible Says About HEALING Leaves | Jordan Rubin x Dr. Axe

I looked at this not as a death sentence, but as a testimonial in the making.

A lot of them have been to 10, 20, 30 other doctors. They've had blood work sometimes taken. Their doctor said, hey, you're normal. Or sometimes they said your blood work's normal, and then they go in 3 months later and they get a cancer or major diagnosis.

Healing leaves contain tannins. Today, for somebody who is battling an immune system disorder, fruit tree leaves particularly are powerful. I think the greatest weapon against disease is faith, And second would be hope.

If you're dealing with digestive issues, cancer, metabolic issues, any type of health problem whatsoever, there are healing secrets that are found in ancient history in the Bible and in functional medicine today, in scientific literature, that so many people are not aware of.

And today I've brought on an incredible guest, and we're going to dive in together those healing secrets that can help you overcome almost any condition you can think about and reverse the irreversible. My guest today is Jordan Rubin. He's a very close friend of mine. We've been together for years helping people heal using food and herbs and lifestyle medicine. And today we're going to dive into these secrets of healing, including the herbs that you're not even aware of in leaves that can help you heal. Jordan, welcome to the show.

It's great to be back.

Well, I know we've done a lot of shows together, we've done a lot of things together, but one of the things I was thinking about as you were coming on the show today is there are so many people I'm currently working with who have a cancer diagnosis. I mean, I have at least— I have 12 people in my head right now I'm working with that have a cancer diagnosis. I have multiple people with major hormonal issues, a lot with major autoimmune disease. And people having these major chronic illnesses that they've been suffering with for years. And a lot of them have been to 10, 20, 30 other doctors. They've had blood work sometimes taken. Their doctor said, hey, you're normal. Or sometimes they said your blood work's normal, and then they go in 3 months later and they get a cancer or major diagnosis. These things happen all the time. And one thing a lot of people don't know about is that you were one of those people. You were running Garden of Life, one of the largest supplement companies in the world in the natural health space. And you got a cancer diagnosis in the middle of it. Tell us about what happened there. I mean, a lot of people don't even know that this happened about 10 years ago to you.

Yeah, so it was longer than 10 years ago. It was 2008.

Oh, wow.

And it was the busiest time of my life, personally and professionally. You know how this goes, Josh. Things tend to come against us when we have the least amount of opportunity to deal with it. I had committed to a 10-month nationwide tour on a 45-foot bus, I was promoting a book and a television program at the time, and we agreed to adopt 2 babies all while this was happening.

Wow.

And right about the 6-month mark, I thought I had a hernia, what presented as an inguinal hernia, or people will call a sports hernia, and a simple procedure turned into a cancer diagnosis, turned into a metastatic cancer diagnosis, turned into a death sentence. So here I was, middle of the year, 2008, I had 2 babies, a 3-turning-4-year-old, and I had almost 200 employees. And at the time, this was before social media, a following related to the books, The Maker's Diet, and I had even written a book called The Great Physician's Prescription for Cancer. And here I was suffering, battling. And I will say this, Josh, the, blessing in all of this is that because I had already overcome incurable inflammatory bowel disease, Crohn's disease, colitis, my faith muscles were already stronger than they had been. And so, I looked at this not as a death sentence, but as a testimonial in the making.

Yeah, wow.

And I believe that more than anything, more than herbs, more than supplements, more than powerful foods made a huge impact. I switched on the belief that I was going to conquer and overcome, not suffer and die. And I know we have nutrition advice to share, but I think the greatest weapon against disease is faith, and second would be hope.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think about my mom's cancer diagnosis, my life-threatening illness, And a very similar thing, that mindset and that belief of knowing God is healer, and also knowing that you can heal, your body is capable of healing when you do the right things. And I remember, so I remember going to your house when you were kind of on the tail end of this. This would've been in probably 2000, in late 2009, probably something like that. And I remember walking in and you had this big vat of, I'm talking about like, it was like a big glass thing of green juice.

Yeah.

And every meal you were doing green juice, avocado, and raw salmon. I mean, those are the things I remember. And I thought to myself, well, this guy is so hardcore. I'm like, he really walks the walk. Because, I mean, you were eating just so perfectly at the time. And one thing I want to get in today is how people can create their own healing protocol and therapy, whether somebody's dealing with cancer, autoimmune disease, major hormonal issue, or one of these inflammatory conditions that's ruining their health, gut issues.

Yeah.

I want people to walk through their protocol because this is the way you and I think. I think what happens today is a lot of times people go into their doctor and their doctor will say, here's a single pill, or here's a single treatment like chemo. Okay? And I know that I learned, uh, over time that there are multiple causes of disease. And so why would you just take a single pill, whether it's a supplement or a medication? If you truly want to heal, you need to— Make some changes and create a whole protocol for healing. So when you had your cancer diagnosis, and even before your diagnosis of irritable bowel disease and all the other conditions you had, like, walk us through what people need to think about and some things you did as part of a comprehensive protocol for healing.

Well, I think the benefit to me at the time and the challenge to others is that I was trained Not only in naturopathic medicine, but nutrition, et cetera.

Yep.

I had already guided people through their own healing journey, whether it's cancer, inflammatory bowel disease, autoimmune disease. I was blessed financially because I had become successful in business, and I had a family that believed that God would heal me supernaturally and naturally. So first and foremost, you have to have the right environment for healing. Josh, I literally fired my oncologist that cursed me with 90 days to live and all that stuff. And I wouldn't talk to people that weren't on board with this healing journey. Now, I, I didn't cut relationships off permanently, Sure. but I had to surround myself with this winning spiritual, physical, mental, and emotional environment. I would liken it to training for the Olympics. Because think about, we, you've talked about Michael Phelps before, et cetera, but when you're training for the Olympics, your environment is completely controlled.

Yeah.

And I knew that this enemy cancer was unrelenting and it was not going to go down easy.

It didn't.

And I had to put something together that would allow and be conducive for my healing.

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Well, one thing I love about you so much is that I feel like every decision you make to a degree, or just the way you think, I should say that, is so biblically influenced. You know, like when you were saying that, it reminded me of, it's either Psalms 1 or 2 where it talks about, Like, don't sit with the scoffers. And it's sort of this sort of like—

Psalm 1:1, yeah.

Yeah. And it's, uh, but it reminds me of that, of surrounding yourself with the right support group. The Team Proverbs gets into that as well.

And that's a key thing.

There's a lot of people trying to figure out how to heal a condition on their own rather than having the right team around them. But so your protocol, so you were, again, you did the vegetable juice. I remember you getting in a sauna a lot. There was a whole protocol you had. Oh yeah, oh yeah.

So I spent 12 to 14 hours a day for 40 days on healing. I was blessed to be able to do it. I told my team at Garden of Life at the time, I said, listen, I have a very serious diagnosis, but God has healed me. You're going to see this manifest. Now, I will say this was new for me because I grew up primarily and came to faith in a Baptist environment where we would pray, Lord, if it's your will to heal.

Hmm.

But I changed my tune pretty quickly and started Quoting a healing prayer that I put together from the Bible and great teachers that didn't question whether it was God's will. I knew it was God's will, and by his stripes, I am healed.

Hmm.

And living that out took all my effort. So I ate a raw food omnivorous diet. So you're referring to raw salmon. So I had salmon ceviche, but not just any salmon, Alaskan sockeye salmon.

I didn't just have any green juice.

I had a special blend of organic greens with lemon juice. And then you mentioned sauna, Josh. I think I went in an infrared sauna for 3 hours a day. It was definitely 2, 2 out, 1 hour followed by 1 hour. I would consume between a quart and a half gallon of a combination of raw tomato, cucumber, and raw coconut cream. Juicing raw coconut cream. I had a, berry smoothie with sheep milk cream yogurt or kefir. It was about getting the greatest amount of nutrition in my body and getting the waste out. I used something called gemotherapy, which are the immature buds of certain plants. So, they would—

you would call it plant stem cells today.

Yeah.

I had consumed systemic enzymes to help with circulating immune complexes, made sure my vitamin D levels were good. I didn't only take supplements, I received an hour of sunlight a day. Most people are afraid to do that right at noon. Again, this was a perfectly designed plan for me.

And most of all, I spent days spiritually and emotionally getting rid of the toxic baggage, the memories and the traumas that I experienced.

And it took me 4 days to remember each time someone had hurt me.

Or I had hurt somebody or something terrible happened, and I prayed until Jesus came in and healed that memory.

And I would rate them from a 1 to 10, and until that memory was a 1, I would stay and meditate on that.

And this was the hardest part—

drinking green juice, eating beef carpaccio and salmon ceviche, and drinking smoothies and consuming That coconut, uh, cucumber and tomato drink, going in the sauna.

I had essential oil massages. All of that was easy, but going through this emotional trauma was difficult. And I was blessed. I didn't have some of the issues that others have.

I had some daddy issues. I had some really, uh, bad things spoken over me when I was a child by teachers or coaches or even my dad to deal with.

I had some disappointments in relationships. This was hard because I had to face things that I don't like to think about.

Yeah.

But I believe that was essential to healing.

And when I prayed this healing prayer for cancer that is 5 minutes long, out loud, 3 times a day, I envisioned the angels being at alert.

Like, it was like a battle cry, like blowing the shofar.

And then I pictured the demons putting their fingers in their ears.

I felt like the word of God, which was sharper than any 2-edged sword, was piercing the darkness, and it was by faith activating the kingdom of heaven.

When you think about what caused cancer, and I do wanna mention for everybody here, Jordan had with this, he had a surgery when he was younger that was part, that made him much, much more susceptible to getting cancer. But outside of that, what do you believe the single greatest driver was of cancer for you, and it is for most people? And then what's the second and third? Like, what do you think are the, in ranking order, the biggest causes of cancer today.

Yeah, for me, Josh, it was the surgery I didn't get. So I had an undescended left testicle, which happens in a certain percentage of boys.

And my dad was a naturopathic doctor at the time, and he and another colleague agreed that getting a surgery, which is now simple, they literally open it up and slip it down, was not advised. And my dad used natural means to help. It didn't work. And then we just forgot about it. And it lodged in my inguinal area, which is why I thought this was And in doing further research after my diagnosis, there was a 1,000-fold increase in likelihood of having a cancer because your testicle belongs in your scrotum.

And it's— I don't talk about this a lot, the type of cancer.

Sure, yeah.

And there's no warming and cooling mechanism. And it just, it slipped physicals.

I just didn't know this.

Yeah.

At the time, because it was so severe, it had spread throughout my body, my lymphatic system, which was why I was recommended such aggressive treatments and told I had a 100% chance of dying in 90 days, 'cause it was fast-growing. Think of what Lance Armstrong's cancer diagnosis was. Yeah.

It was very similar to that, with the exception of I had the added issue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time with my organ.

Yeah.

If you're asking me why I believe most people are diagnosed with cancer, or even worse, why many die, I think number one, it has to do with an overabundance of toxins and a lack of nutrition.

And that could be toxic food, chemicals, toxic thoughts, toxic emotions, and just a lack of—

Hmm.

Think of nourishment as hugs and kisses, love, powerful words spoken over you, a sense of purpose and belonging. And then the equivalent of toxins is, being told that you're not loved, having, in my case, a father that didn't spend any time with me, that didn't believe in me. And I— hopefully my dad's not watching, but I dealt with situations as an adult where my dad literally had written me, as I was, I guess, a teenager, a suicide note that I was supposed to be reading after he took his life. I've never even shared that before.

Wow.

So I dealt with a lot of stuff Yeah. Like that. And when people have these situations, they store them.

Yeah.

In their emotions, and they're activated not by genetics per se, but by epigenetics. And so, I believe we live in a toxic world. Statistics say more than half of humans will be diagnosed with a malignancy or a cancer. So, nowadays, the challenge is the world we live in. But more importantly, the way that I can tell if someone's going to survive and thrive or suffer and die is their belief.

Yeah.

And people don't wanna hear this, but your belief will drive your actions and it will drive what you say. I mean, think about it, Josh. If somebody is diagnosed with cancer and they mention the word, or the phrase, I have cancer, 1,000 times in a week, 100+ times a day, but they say, I'm healed, 1 or 0 times. Death and life is in the power of the tongue. I believe that we are, in a sense, either determined to win, or immediately upon that diagnosis, we register something in our brain and in our heart that we are going to die.

Yeah.

And I've seen a difference. Yesterday, I had a friend reach out to me, And I was connected to him through a ministry, and he is someone who had stage 3 or stage 4 prostate cancer, and we lost touch a little bit, and I wasn't sure what happened, Josh, 'cause the average person would not be alive. He texted me, he's like, Jordan, I'm back, I'm doing great. But the difference between him and other people that I have coached, he said, Jordan, I've conquered this, God has healed me, and it was just night and day difference. I have a lot to live for. I have a family. And I'm going to do this, I'm going to battle, versus, I have cancer, they gave me 6 months to live. It's so huge. And I know people wanna hear about herbs and spices and juices and foods, which we're gonna talk about, and supplements. This is the number one way to determine if you're going to conquer or if you're going to lose, and in this case, lose your life.

Yeah, yeah, it's huge. It's so, so important. And you went in the direction I kind of thought you would. I remember reading a book years ago, and it was called something like The Root Cause, or it was like The Cause of All Disease. And, you know, it gets into this where it says basically there's 2 reasons you're sick, toxicity and deficiency, right?

Yes, yes.

And it is so true, and you see these pathways of what happens. And so, in thinking about those different buckets, I think when we think about the toxicity, of course, glyphosate and forever chemicals and all these chemicals are a big part of it. But even more so, these traumas. You know, I had a guest on, and it was a really great interview, and we got— and he went through and he said, the Bible says if you wanna heal, he said, the number one thing it talks about, both in the Old Testament and New Testament, is confessing your sins unto the Lord. And I was like, really? He's like, yeah. Just went through all these examples, and I thought, wow, that's really, really profound, because I don't think if somebody's sick today, or the church teaches, hey, if you're sick right now, go and confess your sins, and go and— Yeah. You know, heal the trauma and go and do those things. I don't think that's actually talked about very often or done. Sometimes some of the more positive things are, are done in terms of, you know, praying, by his stripes we are healed, which of course is incredibly powerful and important. But I think, I think that's just an important thing of going and actually dealing with those things. So I'm so glad you said that. The toxins are an issue. We'll get into herbs that are great for that too. And then the nourishment, like you said, you're thinking about What is the most nourishing thing I can put in my body that's right for myself, my personal self? One of the things that I've discovered in taking care of and supporting so many people as they go through these serious diagnoses like cancer is everybody's unique. There are some overlapping principles, but people need to have programs typically that are customized for them. Some people are going to do very— we have our friend, Dr. Pete Sulak, he needs to be on a ketogenic diet, right? If it's, if it's an issue related to the brain. There are other people that might follow more of a Gerson protocol that maybe they're not ketogenic and it's not as important. So, you know, how important do you think that kind of personalization is for people when it comes to any diagnosis?

I think it's important, but I think it's a percentage of importance. In other words, there are certain foundational foods and food groups you should eat, and there are things you should absolutely unequivocally avoid.

Yeah.

When we talk about a ketogenic diet, it's really about a fuel source for the body and a metabolic shift. And I think absent of having certain blood work, or let's say a metabolic typing, as I'm thinking way back of—

Oh yeah.

A lot of these very well-known cancer treatments, you mentioned Gerson, but then there, there were others which ultimately morphed into like the Dr. Gonzalez diet, etc., which was an offshoot of another diet I can think of. The main foundation is about 80%, and then for the scalpel, you want to personalize and individualize. But the truth is, not everyone has the means or the vehicle to do it.

Yeah.

And so, I think we can help a high percentage of people Spiritually, mentally, physically, and emotionally with the basics. And it seems too simple— get the good in and the bad out— but we need to make sure of that with body, soul, and spirit. And you mentioned something so important: forgiveness of sins and repentance is practically nowhere. I remember a few years ago I had this epiphany. The Bible says so clearly in 1 John 1:9, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. What'd we just talk about? Detoxifying, getting the bad out, cleansing us. So unrighteousness, bitterness, iniquity, sin, those are toxins, and they're worse than glyphosate and forever chemicals and microplastics. But we believe, and I'm confident of this, that when we're saved, we're saved. And I remember I'm thinking, When was the last time I committed a sin and didn't just feel bad about it, but I actually asked for forgiveness?

Yeah.

So what I do every day now, Josh, in the morning, it's a discipline and it's something I wanna try to continue, is I have prayer requests. I call them my imaginations. So I quote Ephesians 3:20 because I believe we tend to not imagine things anymore. And if we do, they're always bad. So I imagine and ask God for more than I can imagine.

Mm-hmm.

And I have a list of prayer requests I've written down. I journal it 'cause I want my future generations to see it. But then I have at least 3 sins I ask for forgiveness from, and I jot it down. And a lot of times they're pretty similar, which gets me frustrated that I'm not making enough progress. But I'm so glad that I'm doing this because I don't know why, but I tend to, feel a little guilty, but I don't say, Lord, please forgive me for cursing somebody else with my words, or please forgive me for treating Nikki poorly and going to sleep and not saying goodnight 'cause I was mad. Please forgive me for ignoring one of my kids and instead focusing on work. Please forgive me for focusing more on XYZ instead of you.

Yeah.

And I'm, I'm trying to jot that down, even offense, 'cause that's something that Uh, our mutual friend, John Bevere, wrote this amazing book called The Bait of Satan. And that's an insidious reverse pride type sin. But I'm trying to write those down. And I think you hit on something. If you want to cleanse your body of toxicity, you have to repent. And repent comes from the Hebrew word teshuvah, which means completely turn. You're not just saying sorry, you're doing something different, an about-face.

I'm sure you've done this, and Chelsea as well, where—

Yeah. Even Arwen at her age, and I know my kids, they apologize, but they're not really sorry. We say, you're not sorry.

Yeah.

You just are sorry you got caught. Repentance is not sorry you got caught to get out of punishment. It's because you truly separated yourself from God. And this is a big deal, Josh. And again, when someone goes to an integrative or functional medicine doctor, or certainly unconventional oncologist, they are not gonna hear about this. But it is universal. The universal healing message for cancer and other diseases: believe God's best for you, pray like your life depends on it, get rid of sin, repent, bitterness, all of that. And then you go into get the good nutrition in and the bad junk out of your diet.

It's so good.

Cancer, dementia, heart disease— they're coming for so many people. And it's not just because of what most people think, which is that it's bad luck or bad genetics. The truth is your daily choices are either creating health or setting the stage for disease, and your doctor is probably reading your blood work all wrong. They're missing the cellular issues behind the symptoms. I'm currently offering a simple at-home blood test that actually tests for the right things, and just as importantly, it comes with proper interpretation of the results. This new test flips the script. The future of interpreting test results is here. If you want to check it out and grab one before they're gone, just go to mybloodwork.com now.

You know, we were talking about protocols here, and so one of the things we're even doing now at the Longevity Clinic is we're really focused on— and that's my clinic here in Tennessee— and, uh, you know, really focusing on full protocols that even include walking people through if they have certain illnesses Hey, let's go. Here's the Bible verses to meditate on. Here's how to go through this process of confession and exactly what to do from a spiritual standpoint. And then also, we're going to help lay out for you the exact diet, the supplements, the health healing protocols of the therapies and the things that are helpful. But I think about when my mom had cancer, a very similar thing. It was, I want to do everything in my power to heal. And so people need to be thinking about in terms of, if you've got a health problem, Hey, taking care of the body, the mind, but the spirit as well is absolutely crucial. And we're gonna dive into herbals now too, because this has become something I know both you and I are very passionate about herbal medicine. I love studying the history, by the way. I remember years ago, there was a book you wrote. I think it was even before, it was right when I met you, and it was diving into a lot of the historic figures and a little bit of that.

The Raw Truth.

The Raw Truth.

Yes.

Well, it was a great, mini book there. And so this is something I've heard you preaching and teaching and talking about for a long time. And I'd like to kind of go through some of the herbs that you like for cancer. And then I also want to get into some other categories for digestion, for immune health, and for hormones. But let's go ahead and start off with cancer when you think about herbs. And then I want to talk about leaves, and you can include it on there as well, and we'll move into that. But talk to me about your favorite herbs for, for cancer.

When it comes to the botanical kingdom, so let's think herbs and spices combined, I'm going to start with leaves because I believe that tannins— and this is a subject hardly anyone talks about— tannins are the astringent materials that you find in certain herbs, spices, and particularly fruit trees. And there are 2 types of tannins, and I'll get a little bit scientific here: hydrolyzable tannins and condensed tannins. Some of them help loosen tissue, some help tighten it. So for example, if you have chronic diarrhea, or particularly like an inflammatory bowel disease diagnosis of Crohn's, ulcerative colitis, IBS, you might need condensed tannins that help to tighten those tissues. And I've been studying this recently, and I met a gastroenterologist who's the first person I've ever heard talk about powerful studies in Italy that show that you can use certain herbs and spices based on their tannin percentage. That's really interesting. But in this case, healing leaves contain tannins, and the most powerful that I have seen are called ellagitannins, which break down into ellagic acid, which break down into urolithins. And so, I think today, for somebody who is battling an immune system disorder and they want the highest level of polyphenols, because tannins are polyphenols, Mm-hmm. and we're hearing all about that link to longevity, fruit tree leaves, particularly those from pomegranate, walnut, and berries, are powerful. And think about this, Josh, for a minute. If you said to me, Jordan, or if I said to you, what is the number one herb that is an antiparasitic naturally, we might say black walnut, right?

Yeah.

It's a source of these tannins, these ellagitannins. And walnut leaves, for example, are a great source, as is oak. And we've also talked about oak leaves containing quercetin, which is an amazing immune booster, particularly as it relates to seasonal allergies. So I think fruit tree leaves are amazing, and it could be olive leaf, it could be raspberry leaf. They all have unique properties. Probably the number one leaf that people consume when they're facing a serious immune issue is soursop or graviola.

Yeah.

That's kind of reemerged as something—

Oh, yeah.

Really, really powerful. So, I love that, and it's a standard. I didn't consume that when I was battling cancer, because God had not revealed that to me yet. But when I look back, even those plant stem cells that I was consuming, there were birch, and there was maple, and there were these different— oak, and there were these different trees that were part of that, but they've been forgotten or left out of herbal medicine, which is crazy.

I'm really interested in this idea with tannins, and here's my question, because my mind is very much going to actually Chinese and ancient forms of medicine with it. So, what are some of the leaves or berries or some of those things that are more Uh, going to cause that sort of looseness versus the ones that are going to kind of tighten those, you know, tighten things up?

Well, think of it this way. We talk a lot about fiber today. It's having a little moment as well. And every food has a combination of soluble and insoluble fiber. So when it comes to leaves or even root and bark, there's a combination of hydrolyzable and condensed tannins. Some have more of one, some have more than the other. So, for example, raspberry is more promoting looseness. Think what raspberry is used for. It's used to help contractions oftentimes. During birth, yeah.

During birth.

Whereas oak and hickory and more some of the nuts, pine, those are a little more tightening. Blackberry is another great one. Blackberry is amazing, even though it's a bramble similar to raspberry. Blackberry is amazing. to tighten the gut if you have more of a diarrhea condition, or it's great for mucus. So, if you have excess mucus, it helps to thin that and tighten the tissues, and it's great for leaky gut because what is leaky gut? It's loosened.

Yeah.

And so, we're looking at combinations where you've got raspberry for loosening, blackberry for tightening, and in a longevity blend, you want to have a little bit of both. But when you want loosening of tissue. There are certain berries, certain fruits like persimmon, etc. And when I told you, Josh, years ago about healing leaves and the discovery, I had felt like this is an entire system of medicine in and of itself. Doesn't mean it wouldn't fit into some TCM or Ayurvedic principles, but this understanding that I've had recently is part of that answer. When you want to, let's say, remove phlegm from the body, expectorate, you're going to want something that's more loosening. When you want to dry it and tighten it, think of Andrographis.

That's right.

That's an ultimate sort of drying herb. So I'm still learning about these, but as I'm looking to formulate other blends of healing leaves for the gut or for metabolism, that understanding is really helping me in these combinations. So leaves is a big part, and it's been a hidden biblical secret. We first introduced it to the world in the BiblioDiet book, literally.

Yeah.

And I say this, it sounds very egotistical and arrogant, and so I'll say with zero humility whatsoever, I believe we introduced the world to this concept, even though the Bible says in Ezekiel 47:12 and Revelation 22:2, that the fruit will be for food, the leaves for healing, and the leaves are for the healing of the nations. I hope people consume healing leaves the way they do coffee and tea. And I've been studying this, Josh.

3 million—

excuse me, 3 billion people on the planet drink tea every day.

Wow.

3 billion.

Wow.

So imagine if people consume something that came right out of the Bible.

So that's one.

You mentioned herbs and spices.

The herbs that have the highest antioxidants, I believe, are the best for cancer.

So think about rosemary, think about sage, think about oregano. Now, some people look at these as anti-infective, which they are, but oregano and thyme are loaded with antioxidant potential.

You know, Jordan, I recently, I've been doing more and more episodes on, well, I recently did an episode on cancer. And one of the things that, you know, This has become— became really obvious to me as I continue to dig in more and more of the medical journals, is this connection between, uh, microbial overgrowth, whether it be parasites or fungi or H. pylori, in cancer. I mean, so, so, you know, a lot of times when I'm working with a patient now, one of the things I'm always trying to do is figure out what is the one domino that's causing all of the other dominoes to fall over. And, I think for a lot of people, I'm seeing more and more people with chronic infections and that being one of the drivers of those issues. And so, just to the point, a lot of times if somebody has cancer, they think, well, I have to go and kill the cancer. Yet, you do want to do that, but also, why did cancer start growing and thriving? And sometimes it's, well, if you had a parasite infection or long COVID or a number of other issues, your immune system has to deal with this invader.

Yeah.

And, and that allows— it's like your immune system is strong enough where it only has to take on one person, it can handle it, or even two. But all of a sudden now you have this other giant that it's sort of facing. That allows cancer to, uh, grow and thrive and everything else. So sometimes one of the effect— most effective ways I'm finding to help people heal from multiple conditions is to actually deal with something like the infection, or what is the upstream thing. I do this a lot with hormones too. It's like so many patients I'm working with have hypothyroidism. It's typically a cortisol issue or an insulin issue. And if you fix those, or excess estrogen, if you fix those hormones, well, then the thyroid hormones come right back into place. But I just wanted to bring that up as you're talking about these other herbals. It's a, it's a, it's a great, you know, they can be effective as well.

Well, here's an analogy. So you are fighting somebody who's kind of your size, but in the meantime, you have a little guy nipping at your leg, and you've got to push them down with one hand, so you have only one hand or maybe less to fight the quote-unquote cancer. What's great about these antimicrobial herbs and even certain medications, I would say, like an ivermectin and fenbendazole, they don't kill microbes by shooting them or whacking them over the head with a hammer. They focus on that mitochondrial replication and decoupling.

Yes.

And that's where you get the benefits of like a walnut, Or a olive leaf, which olive leaves antifungal and it's antiviral. In my lifetime, I've been in the natural products industry for over thirty years. I have read books and been to clinics where they say all cancers caused by a virus. Another would say all cancers caused by parasites. Another would say all cancers caused by a bacterium or a mycobacterium, and then others would say. all cancer is caused by a certain, you know, fungi like Candida or worse. Think about, uh, I have a friend Doug Kaufman who you've heard of.

Oh yeah.

Know the Cause. Cancer's all fungi. So if there are people that believe that cancer is caused by each of the microbes exclusively, then there's a good chance that that is causing a real problem. And you know what's the best way to keep germs at bay and even disrupt biofilms, which is where they, they lodge in that mucus, that excess lining, it's herbs and spices.

Yeah.

And on the spice side, again, the highest antioxidant spices are best. I love ginger, turmeric, and galangal.

Yes.

Sort of that family of plants.

And if you can get galangal, I think it's the best.

Ginger's amazing, and turmeric's getting a lot of, credit for being an anti-inflammatory, and it should, but galangal is a powerhouse.

But then we talk about other spices like cumin or black cumin. We can look at cinnamon, which has so many benefits that we know and don't know. These are in our spice rack. And so when someone is battling any health condition, herbs and spices, powerful botanicals, including fruit tree leaves, the great thing Josh, is there's no sugar, there's hardly any calories. No matter what diet you're on, you could be on a ketogenic diet and you can consume 10 times the herbs and spices you're consuming today and add zero sugar. So that is ubiquitous in my mind. Now, you might want to find which ones work best for you based on whether it's TCM or talking about these tannins, but any diet you're on, whether it's a plant-based diet, Yeah. Or a carnivore diet— well, maybe not the carnivore diet— or a keto diet, you can implement herbs, spices, and these leaves, and you will be so much better off for it.

Yeah, I wanted, I wanted to just share this, and then we'll continue on with a little bit more herbs, and we're going to get into these other conditions. But, you know, when I think about, in, as we talk about the root cause of why does cancer grow in an area, and we're using kind of these, you know, metaphors there. The way that I know TCM sees it is, you know, your body should be like a stream of living water, like constantly flowing and moving. But what happens is they would say the number one cause is stagnation in an area where blood and oxygen and nutrients are not getting in, they're not getting out. So there's a stagnation there, and that's what causes it to happen. And we think about your, you know, your cancer diagnosis, that kind of that stagnation and, and, and, and what was happening there. And this happens with so many people, and herbs and spices can help move blood. They boost nitric oxide, they help move blood and oxygen and, and, and do a lot of the things you're talking about there. So that's the, that's one of the keys is you gotta make sure things are moving. And I think a lot of the emotions like unforgiveness, being stuck in the past, there's something that keeps things moving there. So I think that that's important. So we talked about herbs, about cancer. You talked about turmeric and galangal and a lot of the antimicrobial herbs like sage and thyme. Olive leaf is one. I've seen so many studies on olive leaf for not only anti-cancer, antimicrobial, heart health, tremendous benefits there as well. And then I want to talk about IBS, IBD, leaky gut, digestive issues. Give me maybe your top 3 or 4 herbs for dealing with, with gut issues.

Well, when it comes to the gut, especially if you're dealing with gas and bloating, which that happens whether you're constipated or have loose bowels, you want to look at this combination of hot and cold because 2 of the most powerful herb and spice combos for millennia for the gut is peppermint or a relative of, because that helps kind of reduce and absorb gas in the system, and ginger.

Yeah.

Or even turmeric, but ginger because it's warming. So Yeah. Ginger sort of warms the fire and peppermint can kind of cool that disruption. There's been studies on peppermint oil, particularly enteric coated, on IBS, gas, et cetera. And ginger is great for upper GI type stress, but herbs and spices in general are so, so good. Fennel is another one, which is great for gas and bloating.

Yeah.

We see that even in children, fennel and star anise. licorice, those work really well. Any of the peppermint family, perilla can work, which is called shiso in Asian medicine, et cetera. When it comes to spices, the cumins are excellent.

Yeah.

Black, I'll guess you'd call it blonde or regular cumin. Dill is another great herb. I mean, there's so many, Josh, that I can think of that are amazing. And we talked about oregano and thyme. Those are excellent to help with small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

Yeah.

People call it SIBO, SIBO, whatever they call it, but sometimes you need to reduce the overall microbial load, and those sort of oregano, marjoram, thyme, and hyssop are great to do that, and then you come in with the peppermint and ginger. There's quite a few that are really, really good, and we didn't talk about this, but one reason that I believe disease is so prevalent across all these conditions is the lack of bitter compounds in our diet.

Yeah, totally agree.

For years, people would consume bitter digestants or ancient bitters, but something I've been studying recently, and this got my attention related to fruit tree leaves, people are very against consuming prunus species in their leaves or maybe even in their seeds. Think apricot, think plum, and peach.

and cherry. But I believe that because we have hybridized so many fruits to make them seedless, that we are lacking in a component in foods called nitrilosides. And you've heard about this, like we have amygdalin, B17, and later it was Laetrile and the Hunzas. Yeah, oh yeah. I'm not saying that a synthetic version of amygdalin or Laetrile is the cure for cancer, like some people did believe, and there's been this cover-up, et cetera.

However, there is something to this.

Think about it. Grapes are great for us, but 100 or 200 or 1,000 years ago, every grape had seeds in it.

Yeah.

And you couldn't eat them without the seeds. There was even a book called The Grape Cure for Cancer. I don't know if you've seen that, by someone named Joanna Brandt. This is because the seeds and the skin of grapes were bitter. Now they're not.

Yeah.

Now, maybe muscadines or maybe Brazilian grape jabuticaba. So I look at everything from apples, which have bigger flesh, smaller, thinner skin, very little seed. We're just not eating these. We eat less almonds, which have a little bit of this. So I think part of the reason we are developing digestive issues, as well as immune system issues, we have removed anything bitter from our diet, 'cause we don't like it.

One of the interesting things that you talked about, I mean, it reminds me of, you know, you have Dr. Steven Gundry, who I think is a really, a really bright guy, but there are so many areas I disagree with him on, and this would be one, is he would tell you, never eat those things. They're the protective compounds of plants that allow them to flourish and grow in the future, but they actually have loads of health benefits. I mean, they're the highest antioxidant, the most medicinal in a lot of areas. So it's interesting. When you think about this whole group of people, again, Dr.

Steven Gundry being one of them, Dr. Paul Saladino, same thing.

Exactly.

Anti-plant defense chemicals. Yeah, yeah. So, but when I look at Chinese medicine, 3,000, 4,000 years old, they would say, no, eat them, just prepare the food properly. I mean, what are your thoughts on these?

Well, I have been around long enough, and this sounds crazy, but I was in this industry before any of the people you mentioned, even though some of them are older than me, 'cause I started so young due to my illness. I have seen everything come and go. It's all about heavy metals. They cause all the diseases. No, it's plant compounds like lectins. The lectin theory was alive and well in 1997. I could tell you everyone was talking about lectins then.

Then it died out.

Dr. Gundry brought it back. I believe that plant defense chemicals can oftentimes be healthful for our body. Now, I'm not suggesting we should consume a bunch of legumes that aren't soaked, a bunch of phytates. I don't think gluten is good for us, for example. But when we're talking about plant defense chemicals that are polyphenols, flavonols, flavonoids, there is no doubt if you look out in nature, they make these plants resilient. And I said something yesterday at an event we did. I said, I am actually studying invasive plants to understand how they are so powerful. We looked at lemon balm yesterday.

Yeah.

raised bed, nothing else is growing there. That is allelopathic. Not allopathic, but allelopathy means these lemon balm leaves, the roots, they're shooting out chemicals that keep other plants from growing.

Yeah.

They have essential oils, triterpenoids, etc. So when I see kudzu, when I see blackberry, when I see certain types of pears, they're called calorie pears, or Bradford pears, I think these are amazing. They are dominating their environment, and when we consume them, we are inheriting their resistance. And what you call and I call antioxidants, those are plant defense chemicals.

Yeah, yeah.

And I know some people say, well, you can eat them in fruits, but don't eat them in vegetables. And I agree, eating something disgusting and forcing it down your kids' throats as like a main part of your meal, that's not good. But medicinally, these have always been used. In fact, the Bible said when Jesus was chastising the Pharisees, woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you tithe dill, mint, and cumin, but you have left out the weightier issues of the law. What he was saying is dill, mint, and cumin were as valuable or more than gold and silver.

And what do they all have in common? They all have bitters.

Peppermint seems cool and refreshing, but it's bitter.

It's bitter, yeah.

And I used to have this saying when I started dabbling and then formulating with Andrographis, the bitter makes you better, 'cause it's the king of the bitters. So again, think about what Andrographis has been studied for now, immune system deficiency, digestive deficiency, and joint pain and inflammation. So get bitter out of your emotional and spiritual life, but get bitter back into your diet.

Yeah, and I would encourage everybody, as we've kind of dove into this, listen, I am a true believer in personalized medicine. And so some herbs will be better for you than others. Generally, here's the rule of thumb Jordan and I both believe, everybody needs a lot more herbs, okay? You go to other countries, you go to, Yeah. The Middle East, like Israel, you go to India, you go to Asia, they are using way more herbs than we are here today and way more herbal tea. In fact, drinking herbal tea in Asia, Japan, Okinawa, again, Middle East, it's much more common than it is here. And there are so many benefits of getting herbal teas. But with that as well, you do want to find what herbs are best for you. And so, I think about this, Jordan. A couple problems today. One is we tend to kind of oversimplify everything. Oh, if you're sick, take vitamin C. But really, it's not always the single best thing you could take. And I would say for a lot of herbals, if you have a fever and your body's really, really hot all the time, you actually want to take herbs that are—

Cooling.

Can be cooling. If you're really cold and you have the fevers and chills, then you want to do warming. For instance, do some cayenne pepper, do some garlic, do oil of oregano if you've got chills and you're cold. If you're really hot, you want to do Andrographis, the bitter herbs, because those tend to be more cooling or cooling herbs. And so really, you know, listening to your body and then knowing which herbs— and this is something that, you know, functional medicine doctors can help you with. You can use AI today and say, here are my symptoms, what are my herbs that are best based on I'm cold, I'm this, I'm this? And it'll tell you. I mean, that's one of the great things about the development of AI today. But there's no doubt That herbal medicine is the original pharmacy. If we were to go back 200 years ago, all of these synthetic medications weren't around. I mean, going back and using these, and the Bible talks about them, everything from Esther to Solomon to them talking about in the New Testament here, Jesus referencing their herbs and things like that. So, okay, so we talked about cancer, we talked about digestive health. I want to talk about the top immune-boosting herbs that you like to recommend.

Yeah, well, this is so broad, as you mentioned, because you could go the bitter route with Andrographis, which I think is especially great for a short-term—

Oh, yeah.

Immune system issue, and it activates the liver. It's very powerful. Elderberry is super popular, and I think it's amazing. Elderberry contains those polyphenols. Just as good as elderberry is, I think aronia berry is amazing, and the list can go on and on. Honeys can be amazing. It's great because it helps you take the medicine down.

Yeah.

Mary Poppins was wrong. A spoonful of honey makes the medicine go down. That is really, really great. I think there's standbys. Anyone who wants to boost their immune system, they need to have the optimal vitamin D range.

Yeah, yeah.

That could be sunshine, that could be a UVB lamp if you can't or won't go out in the sun, and it can be vitamin D supplementation. But if you're not at 65 to 80, on your vitamin D test, you're wasting your time on a lot of things. It is imperative to get that level. I think making sure your zinc and copper levels are good— minerals are very underrated.

Yeah.

When it comes to that. And then when it comes to herbs and spices, this is going to sound easy, but I believe you need to double or triple or quadruple the herb and spice consumption when you want to boost your immune system. And you almost can't go wrong no matter which you choose. You mentioned some warming herbs like cayenne. Think of like a horseradish or an onion or a garlic. They are great in combination. And there's all these different tonics, fire tonic, and different things that people tell you to use because not only do they kill germs, but they help to warm the system. They boost your metabolism. And when your metabolic system is boosted, It helps to chew through and get rid of germs. Infrared sauna and perspiration is critical. When I was younger, you might've heard the same thing. When I had a cold or a flu, I was always told, if you have a bowel movement and you sweat, you know you're breaking the fever. And that's something so important. If you do not have a high fever, you can go in a sauna and raise your core body temperature. It not only helps to detoxify—

That's right.

the harmful compounds, but it helps to get your metabolism boosted. I think that's amazing. Some people, if they're super hot, they need to go cold therapy.

That's right.

I've had high fevers where I went into an ice bath. So, I think those are all important, but the more herbs and spices you can get that are higher in antioxidants, if you're not hot or cold, but you're just sick, Oregano is kind of good because it's in the middle. It warms you a little bit, but it can also cool you. You want to consume either a combination of heating and cooling herbs or neutral ones that are going to give you those antioxidants.

Yeah, I think it's great advice. If you kind of don't know, or you're somewhere in the middle and you've had both symptoms, kind of going both ways are great benefits. And then let's talk about the best herbs, some of your favorite for hormonal health.

This is great too. There's so many, and you and I have talked about this formulated with these ad nauseam. If you're dealing with menopause or perimenopause, people are going to want to use like a black cohosh or a dong quai.

Yeah.

I really like ashwagandha and rhodiola because it balances cortisol. You got to get your insulin straight as well. Chaste tree berry, vitex, et cetera. There's actually a lot of plants that have mild phytoestrogens that can be amazing. We've talked about this Shatavari, pronounced— or Shatavari, that is spelled Shatavari. I would say is the new kid in town, but it's known as the queen of herbs.

Yeah.

And it is amazing. I've seen published clinical research on a reduction in hot flashes, dryness, emotional ups and downs, improvement in sexual function. It's absolutely amazing.

Yeah.

In fact, ashwagandha plus Shatavari, and then looking at like a black cohosh, dong quai, and vitex.

Oh, yeah.

Things like maca can be good if you want to sort of reduce the xenoestrogens, you know, those cruciferous-type vegetables. We were talking about this yesterday.

Moringa is actually amazing.

It's got similar compounds to like a DIM, or will help reduce those toxic compounds that bind to estrogen receptors for both men and women. But to me, those are the biggies. But what I'm hearing now more than ever in the hormonal space is painful irregular periods, infertility, and PCOS.

And that's another area where Shatavari absolutely shines with clinical studies on PCOS, as well as painful menses, which is just so rampant.

Yeah, yeah. And let me hit on one that I know is one of your favorites, if not your favorite, that you didn't hit on for this, and that is mulberry leaf. I mean, mulberry leaf is incredible. I mean, I, you know, berberine is getting so much press today for blood sugar as a compound, and it should be. But I would put up there on equal footing, if you have metabolic issues, diabetes, you want to lose weight, any sort of metabolic health support. And of course, the reason I bring this up is PCOS is very, very insulin-driven.

Yes.

But mulberry leaf as an herbal tea, as a supplement, is tremendously beneficial for people. And I also want to just let people know Jordan's got a great herbal tea blend called Healing Leaves. You could check that out online too. But I'm a huge fan of mulberry. In fact, Jordan and I co-own a farm. We were there yesterday down in the southern part of Tennessee, and Todd Vincent, our close friend, and he manages the farm, made me a giant bag of mulberry leaf tea that I've been doing now for a year. I mean, I love it. It's kind of like a— it doesn't quite taste like matcha. It's like a matcha meets more of like a moringa or something like that. But anyways, mulberry is great. I want to mention a few other things for hormones for men. Tongkat Ali, fenugreek, Panax ginseng. There's a lot of herbs and leaves that are great there as well. But I just wanted to mention this too, as we talked about a lot of these different things, I think balancing cortisol and insulin Are the 2 hormones that most affect other hormones. And that's why I love especially the reference to ashwagandha, rhodiola, those sort of herbs that impact that. And then the herbs that impact blood sugar and insulin, like mulberry, kind of across the board for everybody. And then maybe the other category would be herbs that reduce inflammation, like the turmerics and the gingers and the galangals would be great as well. So if you're wondering, hey, what do I take? Again, focusing on maybe those categories of, do you have more of a blood sugar Or a cortisol and stress issue, or something more related to inflammation. And there is an herb and a leaf for all of those things.

Absolutely. I remember we formulated a product which was kind of the first of its kind, which was an ashwagandha cinnamon combo. Yeah. And you've got cortisol and insulin, such a great blend. And you mentioned mulberry. There is something going on with mulberry. I know that because we grow it and We're also looking for other sources just to see what's out there. And I have a pretty good network of ingredients, and I cannot find mulberry available, particularly not organic.

Wow.

But yet, certain people live in areas where it's growing wild. And I've had 3 people that I have shared this Healing Leaves message with that consumed mulberry, only mulberry. One was an Indian medicine man who had developed type 2 diabetes, and all 3 in different parts of the world, have either lowered or completely gone off their insulin by consuming mulberry leaf tea.

It's incredible.

It's not technically a tea, but it's mulberry leaf infusion before their meals, and it shuts the ability of the body to produce that excess insulin, and it shuttles the glycogen, or the blood sugar, into your muscles. So, it's, it's something that is so forgotten. That's why I love the Healing Leaves message, because these powerful nutrients and compounds have been hidden in plain sight. And I'm doing more research now on common plants like hazel or hazelnut, hickory. And I'm going around with my little plant app on our farms. And I'm just so excited because—

It's so fun.

Our forests have answers for our healing, whether it's walking through them and breathing the amazing oxygen, like that forest bathing, or just Cutting a few leaves. And this time of year, everyone listening or watching us has an opportunity to get more of these amazing benefits from what God created.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And also, if you guys want to dive deeper into some of this, I'd encourage you check out a book Jordan and I co-authored called The Biblio Diet. We've got a couple chapters in the book where we really get into the food and the herbs and the spices and the leaves and how you can use those for healing. That's a great reference guide. There as well for you to dive into. And remember, you know, there is an herb or a leaf for anything you can think of. A lot of times people, when they have a health issue, we run to, you know, a medication versus finding out what herbs, spices, and leaves are the most healing to your body. And again, a really simple way to do this is look it up online. You can go on AI on one of these tools and say, hey, here are my health problems. What herbs and spices, and what are my top 5 in ranking order I should add into my diet or as a tea or as a supplement? And it's going to make great recommendations. Or say, what would Dr. Josh Axe and Jordan Rubin recommend be the best herbs and leaves? And you'll probably get maybe a more precise recommendation based on our knowledge of biblical medicine and functional medicine and those recommendations for you as well. And Jordan, I want to say thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me.

I—

some of my favorite conversations I've ever had in my life about health have been from Jordan. Part of it is I've received advice from Jordan over the years, uh, that have helped me heal. He was part of my mom healing from cancer many years ago, and he's always been an amazing resource and friend. But I want to encourage you to check out a couple things Jordan has going on. Jordan has an incredible Instagram and social media following. You can check him out at Jordan Rubin there on social media. He's got a podcast show. He also has a product called Healing Leaves. So if you want to do some herbal tea, you can check that out there as well. And we just want to say, everybody, thanks so much for watching here, the Dr. Josh Axe Show, where we're diving deep into the science and principles of how you can heal physically, mentally, and spiritually. Also, hey, do me a big favor, share this episode. There are millions who don't know the truth about— they can use herbs and spices to heal from numerous health problems, and also subscribing.

Yes.

Is the number one thing you can do to support the show here as well. So thanks so much for watching. Can't wait to see you on the next episode.