Why Your Expectations Are Destroying Your Relationships | Jamie George

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Thank you, man. It's great to be with you.

Well, you know, one of the things that I've appreciated as I was reading about your background and thinking about some of the things that you've been really able to add value to people with, I think that Um, I've heard you talk about most people today are just trying to survive, right? So, and, and I, I think I experienced this when I first opened a clinic years ago and I started working with patients. I started realizing, like, if I would ask most, especially moms, hey, how are you doing? What's going on in life? The word I kept hearing from people is, I'm overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed. I'm, I'm tired. I'm anxious. I'm, I'm just trying to survive.

Yeah.

And so one of the things I know you specialize in is helping people go and go from this mode of I'm just trying to survive to thriving and living it, having great relationships and being more effective at work and having a great marriage and all of those things. So walk me through a little bit about that process of one, why do you think so many people today are living in this state of just trying to survive and how do you get them into a state of thriving in growth and success?

Yes, uh, it's loaded, man.

There's so much. Good.

Well, you know, I, I think there is— in today's world, we, we have expectations about how we're supposed to live, what we're supposed to own, how we're supposed to look. We live in a world of— we've always lived in a world of comparison at some level, but now the comparison is at the highest level because we're thumbing through and we're watching the snaps. Before we watch the snapshots of movie stars and political figures, and we might feel a little envy that, gosh, they have a great life. But it was like kind of— it was a full step out because we're like, well, I'm not them. Now we thumb through our Instagram or Facebook or some social media platform and we see the best moments of our friends' lives. Yeah. And we go, their life is awesome. Like, look at their Christmas decorations, look at their holiday travel. Look at how much their husband loves them. Look at how perfect their children are. Like, we just get to see the best of everybody's life, multiple— not just one person, not just some Hollywood star off in California. No, this is, um, my friend down the street. Everybody around me's life is so perfect, but mine is not. And I do— and I think there is an energy that's generated that goes What's— what am I doing wrong? I guess I need to work harder, faster, do more. And so we tend to then bite off more than we can chew, get stuck in this loop of not having. I mean, it's not new news. I mean, there's a wonderful book in the '80s written by a guy named Neil Postman called Amusing Ourselves to Death, and he was talking about how we get hooked in entertainment and constantly consuming things, right? So it's no new news that we live in kind of a materialistic society where we are some of the especially if you live in the West, some of the largest consumers on the planet, right? We live the— we leave the biggest carbon footprint, you know, in some, in some ways. So that's not new news, but I think the comparison piece has contributed and added to this sense of stress and overwhelm. So in terms of the why, I just think that's a big part of it. And I'm, I'm simplifying to say, what if just one— what if you just removed comparison? How might that change how you lived today? Yeah, it's been said that comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah, and so what we're not doing is thumbing through— most people are thumbing through Instagram of all the homeless people on the planet. What if every homeless person had an Instagram account? If we're thumbing through those, we probably have a different energy. That's right, we probably have some compassion and some sadness, and maybe we even have this gratitude that sneaks up on us that we weren't even aware of, like, oh my Gosh, that's horrible. I feel so bad for that person. And oh my goodness, somebody needs to help him. And man, I thought my, I thought my day was rough, right? Like, wouldn't it be interesting if all your Instagram were just homeless people?

Yeah.

Or all your Instagram was everybody who showed how horrible their moment of the day was. It would, it would be a different energy. And I'm dropping in just on the comparison thing because I'm just trying to put my thumb on one thing. There are lots of things.. But when one of the things I try to do with clients is go, could we just make one micro shift? What's one little shift we could make today? And let's go do that for about 30 days. Let's, let's experiment. Let's see how that changes your life. So somebody was listening and they're like, yeah, I feel overwhelmed. And so you feel overwhelmed. Hey, don't go to social media for a month.

Yeah.

And set, set a mindset, set an intention that goes, hey, the moment I feel this temptation to compare myself with someone else's life, I'm driving down Franklin Road in Brentwood or wherever I am in the world, I'm, I'm, I'm driving this thing, I'm having this conversation, and I'm seeing what someone has that I don't have. In that moment, if I feel a temptation to compare, if I go, no, no comparison, in the moment where I feel tempted, I'm going to do a quick review of what's good in my life. It would be interesting to see how that might affect your overwhelm. Wow.

And it's powerful. You know, I, I, I heard a psychologist talk about this not long ago that, you know, now because of social media today, we are exposed to people that are all over the world, all of these different people, and we can now compare ourselves to so many more people versus in the past. You might have grown up— somebody might have grown up like for myself, grown up in a city of 20,000 people, and there are people in all ranges, but you know, you had more of an ability to maybe even feel special and unique because when you're comparing yourself to one, and let's even call a smaller part of your community one in a thousand people. Hey, you were maybe the best at this and the best of this, even whether it's athletics or it's music or creativity or your work or profession, whatever it is. And it was a little bit more about, hey, your roles, your responsibility, your identity within the community. Well, today it's turned into this thing where it's like you've got millions of people, and most the time people are following it, you're following the one in a million person, right?

Right.

And that, I mean, that if you're comparing yourself to that person, that can be devastating to a lot of people if they're living in that state. So the positive I do see is I think for some people maybe it causes them to say, well, I can do more with my life if they have the right perspective. Right. But I think most people are living in that other area that you're saying is they feel it's almost defeated. Yeah. Because of it.

Yeah. Then that's when they come to me and say I'm overwhelmed.

Yeah.

See, the reverse is here's where, here's what, let's re— and I, and I'm the kind of person, so my my way of being in the way I work with clients is I always say there's no judgment. So we're just making observations, and I just go, well, are you suffering? So if you're overwhelmed, sounds like you're suffering. You have some— maybe some fear and anxiety. So that might be a— like, is there a comparison happening, right? But let's say they go, how you doing? Oh my gosh, I've been on Instagram all day and I'm so inspired. Ah, tell me about that. Well, this person's doing this, and I've been sitting on the couch, and I like—

and you know what, I know there's no more in me.

I mean, I'm at like 80%. I'm not leaving it all on the field. That guy's leaving it all on the field. I I'm going to leave it on the field. Coach, what do I do? Ah, okay, cool, let's go, right? It's a different conversation. That's right. So it's not that Instagram or social media is bad, it's what is it doing for you or to you. Now that little phrase is an interesting phrase. It's been said that you could sum up all of life in this one phrase: life is either happening to me or life is happening for me. Life is happening to me, I'm a victim. If life, life is happening for me, I'm an owner. I have— you and I talked about this previously— yeah, I have free will. I have— I get to make an empowered choice. So I— this is fundamentally one of the things I deal with people. If somebody comes in and they're in this, they're in a place of suffering, you know, that's usually I go, what's working, what's not working, right? It's a pretty easy place to start. In the not working, if they, if, if their language or their tone or the story they tell themselves is that I'm a victim of something that's happening externally— the economy, the political system, my mother, my marriage, my kids, my job, my boss, whatever the thing is— and I, and their energy is I'm the victim of what somebody else is doing, then one of the things I'm gonna say, so life is happening to you? Oh yeah, I'm the victim of it. Well, what can you do as a victim? Well, virtually nothing, because I don't have any power there. It's all happening to me. Only thing I can do is try and manipulate someone else or manipulate the external environment so that it will give me some kind of temporary reprieve. And we've all done this, right?

Yeah.

Oh yeah, right. But it doesn't last. It's extremely temporary. I finally got my wife to do this, or I finally got my kid to act like this for like a day, you know, and then they came back and they were disrespectful again, and now I'm upset, right? So what if instead life was happening for you? If life's happening for you, then that means you get to take ownership. I, I have some friends of mine who are therapists, and, and one that we talk a lot about what, what shapes people and creates the makeup in someone, right? And one of the things they say is that when they deal with someone who's an abuse victim, they'll say, hey, the moment you were abused, you were a victim. And it mattered. In the next moment, you were not. If you continue to live as if that's your identity, your identity is you were abused in that moment, right, as a child, or by a spouse, or by a boss, or by a religious system, or whatever the thing is. If that's your identity, then you always live in this down place without any power, without any ability to choose. But if you can go, no, that mattered, so I'm not going to deny it, and I'm not going to look over it, No, that moment mattered and it impacted me, but I'm not going to live there. I'm going to make a choice now. Today I'm going to make a choice. What will I now do with what's happened in my life? And ironically, a lot of people, when you go look for their why, their why is often from the place of pain in their life. Yeah. So, you know, in a Christian framework or a spiritual framework, you have heard the phrase God redeems all things. Like, this is where this actually can, uh, you can look back and go, oh wait, that thing that I thought was bad or horrible has now been made for the good.

Yeah.

Uh, I was listening to, um, Chris Rock and, uh, Jerry Seinfeld were doing those comedians having coffee in cars, whatever that thing was called. And I remember Chris Rock was saying, um, and this is years ago, so he probably actually did it, but he said, I'm working on a bit on bullying. And he goes, everybody wants to get rid of bullying. He's like, I don't know, I think it's a good idea. And so I was like, what? He's like, well, I mean, if you, if you don't get bullied, who's gonna invent fossil fuel, right? Like, like it's, it's, some of us go back to that place of pain and it's been the motivator for us actually to show up in the world differently and maybe give to someone, help. Sometimes I think we're trying to help heal people while we're healing ourselves. And so that's why I look at it like, hey, there's no judgment. Even if you're a victim, there's no judgment. I just say to my— so they say, my clients, like, is it like— what's that like? Like, do you— is it working for you? Do you have any power there? It sounds like there's a lot of suffering. So first we have to kind of come to that. Are you willing to take ownership of your own life? And that's a shift. Yeah, right. That's a starting place where someone goes, yes, I'll take ownership. My temptation will be tomorrow to blame someone. Because I got neural pathways and I've done that for a long time. And we all do. I do. Something doesn't go wrong, I'm in the left-hand lane and this person doesn't move, and I'm the victim of this slow driver because I didn't plan enough time in my drive, right? Like, I mean, I did it all the time. So all of this brings us to the place each day where we get to recognize we get to make a choice. And that's one of the things that's fundamental to all my coaching is Hey, you always get to make a choice.

Yeah, that's so good. You know, one of the things as you were sharing this, I think I would love to hear from you on is what are some of the things people can start to do now if somebody's in that place? They say, you know what, I know I've got a victim mentality, I know I blame other people, I'm not taking full ownership, but I don't know where to start in terms of some of the things, in terms of you take ownership. How does someone go about breaking that neurological cycle and start taking full ownership.

First, start with compassion. So when, when we're— when I'll use me— when I'm in a victim place, it, it doesn't help me to judge myself for it. Like, oh, there you are again, Jamie, you're being a victim. Jeez, what an idiot. Like, how long— you, you even coach on this? Are you kidding me? Right? Judgment doesn't serve us. It just takes us to shame. So instead, if I can go to compassion and go, oh, there's my ego, and my ego's trying to keep me alive. The ego walks around on the planet just trying to stay alive. That's the survival— fight, flight, or freeze. Way back in my past, there were dinosaurs that chased me, you know, the saber-toothed tiger was out there. And if I can go, hey, my ego is the primal part of me that's trying to keep me alive, I don't have to judge it. Thank you, ego, but I only survive there. And I'd like to thrive. So I've got some compassion. I recognize that's in the wind, you know. I, as you said, I, I come from a, um, my background grew up in a Christian paradigm, but then got into psychology. And like you, some of the— studied a lot of Eastern perspective on faith and medicine. So I've kind of this broad view. But when you look at it, we— you can language in a lot of different ways. This is your shadow self or your ego self, but it's that part of us that keeps us in suffering. And so we can, we can come above and out of that place if we awaken to this other part of who we are in this higher self, true self in psychological language, Christ self in Christian language, right? Pick the language. But this— and how do I get into the true self? Well, I got to go back to ownership. So in that moment, so if I'm in a victim thing and I want to shift, first compassion. Ah, there you go. It's okay. And it's teaching you something. That life is there as my teacher. Life is happening for me, so there's an opportunity for me to learn. Now, why do I see myself as a victim right now? Almost every single person— and I find very few exceptions here— they will find this will be the next thing they discover: I have an unmet expectation. Hmm. You could almost say that every single relationship problem we have comes down to one thing. Resentment. Yeah, yeah. Resentment with myself, resentment with you, resentment with the driver, resentment with the waitress, resentment with the president, resentment with my, my mother, my father, right? And the resentment is this— resentment's a strong word, but resentment is I've got some residual energy that I've not let go of because you didn't meet my expectation. Yeah. Expectations are what we believe about how other people will behave. And the problem is they don't always behave according to what I expect them to. Yeah, you and I were talking about the Enneagram earlier, right? So if you're wired as an 8 and I'm wired as a 3, you're, you're wired to challenge. Yeah, you're gonna see, you're gonna naturally see something, you go, oh, I should challenge that, right? It's a compulsion you have. Yeah, I'm gonna be wired to be diplomatic. So you might see somebody be like, we need to take that, we need to talk, somebody needs to talk to that guy. And I might be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, I mean, let's, you know, let's give a couple different perspectives, right? Yeah, because of how we're wired, right? It's okay, there's neither of them's right and wrong. Yeah, but if you go, Jamie, I expect you to be a challenger, and I say, hey Josh, I expect you to be diplomatic and you're not, yeah, I might be resentful of you. Yeah, and you might be resentful of me. Yeah, and these little micro resentments happen all the time. And so one of the things I say to people— this is one of the very, like, first session with a client, one of the things I'll invite them to is, hey, would you be willing to never have another expectation ever again? Like, wait, but I even have job expectations. And I'm like, but are they expectations? Now, nothing exists in a vacuum, so if you do remove expectations, you have to replace them with something, right? Well, so what would I replace them with? Well, what if you lived your life not by expectations but by agreements? So what if you replaced all your expectations with agreements? Now, rather than me having an expectation about how you'll be, we could replace that with an agreement. So let's say you and I, we've got a friend, and this friend's struggling with the thing, and you're like, man, we got to challenge this guy. Let's go in, I'm gonna stick my finger in his chest. Like, let's go. And I'm going, I don't know, I think he needs a little more compassion. And before we walk in, I go, Hey, you know what, let's make an agreement.

Good cop, bad cop.

Anyway, you go, no, let's do good cop, bad cop. I'm like, okay, well, all right. So here I use this thing that I got from Stephen Karman in the 1960s called the Drama Triangle. He says there's 3 unhealthy ways of relating, and then there's 3 healthy ways of relating. So there's really 2 triangles. There's a red triangle, that's the ego self, and then there's the green triangle, and that's your higher self. Well, in this higher self, I take ownership. That's the top of the triangle. I set boundaries for myself, and then I negotiate with other people because they also get to set boundaries. And that's the world of agreements. So we're walking in and we go, hey, let's negotiate. You go, let's play good cop, bad cop. This is going to be really good. It's really effective. I've done it before. I know it's going to work. And I'm like, yeah, but I know his personality. Like, I'm thinking about him. I'm really empathetic. And I don't know if that's going to be true, but we negotiate. We come to an agreement. We both go in, whether it works or it doesn't work. Neither of us is resentful with each other because we made an agreement about how we'd go in. Yeah, you know, I, I agree, I don't think it worked, but I agreed to it, right? Now there's no resentment. Here's the other thing that's powerful about an agreement is I'm not managing you and you're not managing me. We're just managing the agreement between us.

Yeah, but this is really a really powerful, uh, relationship principle. I mean, incredibly powerful. I'm thinking about most relationship issues today that you just shared. And, uh, it's, you know, my, my sister— I was just sharing this with somebody else, but my sister-in-law just got married, and, um, and it was— and she was in her robe on Sunday, like, ready to relax and watch something. And, you know, it's their first Sunday, one of their first Sundays of after, after just getting married. And then he's got all of his, you know, football gear on at 11:20, like, hey, you know, we got the, the game here, and we got to go to the sports bar. You know, let's, you know, sort of— and, uh, I mean, early on in marriage is just such a good thing to say.

So what are you doing, right? Like, this is like, how is this even in question? It's football day, right? And she's like, hello, we just got married, aren't we gonna sit and have coffee? Yeah, right. Totally. Those are the little things that show up all the time. What I love about agreements is that it just— it— I don't have to take it personally, and I'm being playful with you and I, but like, you and I went into that thing and we agreed on the good cop bad cop, and we went in, had this conversation with our And whether it went— whether it goes well or not, I'm not taking it personally, like, Josh didn't do it my way. I'm going, well, we made an agreement. Hey, that— I don't think the, um, I don't think that worked. So I just go back to you and go, hey, can we make a new agreement? Because I don't think that worked. Or it did work, I'm like, wow, good call. Or let's say we break the agreement, or we go in, I go, I say, hey, you, you agree with me, go, okay, I won't do good cop bad cop. I'll, you know, we'll be empathetic and listen to his story first. And geez, I gotta sit here and listen, right? And And we, we, and then, but something happens in you and you're like, no, somebody's got a chance. You can't say that. Somebody's got a challenge. So you jump in and you challenge it. I'm like, yeah, we got a broken agreement. Yeah, right. I'm not taking it personal. You don't like me. You didn't respect me. I'm disrespected. I just go, hey, we got a broken agreement.

Yeah.

You go, ah, my bad. You're right. I did agree to that.

It's good.

Okay, can we have a new agreement? Yeah, yeah. Okay, new. And so you see how suddenly, yeah, wow, we might have conflict, but the conflict is just around the agreement It's not me taking it personal. And because how many times you hear somebody like, I feel disrespected, or, you know, not, you know, that I don't feel— they don't love me, right? I mean, men and women especially, right? That's one of the two biggest things we get hooked on. And so suddenly I was with a client just this week and he was like, I just feel so disrespected from my wife. And so I, I, I said, well, can I say this story back to you? And I said the story back to him from her perspective. And I was like, because he gave me her perspective, I'm like, do you think maybe she's just a nurturer who really feels concerned about how the house is going to look with this and that because of the kids, and is it possible she's— she's not— is it possible she's really driven by this primal urge to take care of the children? And he goes, well, yeah. So is it possible she's not disrespecting you, she's really standing solidly for something she believes is true? Yeah. So did you have an agreement around this? No. So you're taking something personally because neither of you agreed. You walked into a thing blindly. And had two opposing opinions, and then you wound up arguing about it and you walked away with your feelings hurt? What if before you walk in, you set an agreement? And so it's just this— it's a thing you get to have between you. And, and you— I just, I, I try to remind people and myself, like, I mean, me too, like, I'm walking this journey out. How many times I'm disrupted because I just have an unmet expectation?

Yeah, so good.

So yeah, that's a big— that's a major part of the shift.

I love it. I, I love that. It's— yeah, it's a form of negotiation. There's Chris Voss, you know. Yeah. And, and, you know, I think I became even more enlightened to this when he was watching it, watching something he did, and he said, you know what, like, I negotiate with my dog, like, sit down and negotiate with my daughter today. And I started realizing I've got a 3-year-old right now, and I, I negotiate with her all day, every day on you know, on putting on her pajamas or whatever it might be. There's literally negotiations all day, every day, and coming to it and coming to an agreement. I mean, again, this is part of every part of our lives.

Yes. And I really want to affirm that, by the way. This is beautiful. And I hope people who are listening who are young parents, I love that you're modeling this because here's, here's what you're doing. You're saying to your 3-year-old, oh, you're actually a human with dignity. And I'm honoring your choice. I grew up in parenting— here's some of my regrets as a parent. I, we got— I've been married 31 years. We had kids pretty early on. I was— we were 20, we got married 22. I had— we had twins, so I had 2 kids by the time I was 25. So, uh, sorry kids. Um, so, you know, I had to learn on the older ones, so my twin boys and then my daughter. And, um, and then we had a fourth later on. We that we parented a little differently. But in the beginning, it was about behavioral adjustment. You're too loud. Stop doing that. You're hitting your brother. You're throwing your food. You're not eating. And, and, and early on, our reactive parenting was just change the behavior because it doesn't fit my preference. Yep, that's it. Yeah, that was simple parenting. I don't like that. I don't think this is good for you. Don't do it. Then I stumbled upon choice theory, which is if you actually honor choice, which is to me what you're talking about, and you say to your kid, you know what, you can eat your food or you cannot eat your food. If you eat your food, you'll get to watch Barney later, right? If you don't eat your food, you don't get to watch Barney. You get— now, which choice would you like to make? Like, but that simple shift of allowing them to see themselves as an empowered chooser. Now, you're still giving them a tight little world of which they get— have choice places, right? But isn't it wild, that little negotiation allows them, I think, to have a different level of confidence when they're older?

Yeah, it's so true. And I think one of the things that Chelsea and I— my wife, she's a physician too, and she studied a lot of, you know, parental psychology. And I think she, she's the one— I think she really did a great job with bringing some of this into some of our, our parenting. And I— part of me sometimes is like Again, I mentioned this already, we're just— it's an all-day negotiation, and I'm trying not to also at the same time make it bribery, right? You know what I'm saying? It's this thing of like, okay, it's not like, okay, if you do this, you get your, you know, chocolate or your macaroon or whatever, but, but it is a little bit of that. It's like, hey, listen, if you eat your entire meal, you can have this. If you don't, you don't, right? So there's— so, so there's a— there's a way to do that.

But think about us as adults, right? Like, hey, by the way, If you work out today and you eat healthy most of the day, then you could treat yourself with this piece of chocolate or whatever, right? Because by the way, you're taking care of yourself and there's— you're acting in moderation. You get to treat yourself as opposed to, um, we, we talked about this earlier, we had another conversation about how sometimes when it comes to health and wellness and stuff, like, oh, you're taking this from me, right? That just— that difference of like cheat day or treat day is a very different way of seeing it, right? I'm treating myself because I actually was really responsible in this area. And, and so I think even as an adult, I think it's helpful to go, well, as an adult, there's a, there's a risk-reward, there's a— totally, right?

Yeah. I think the one thing I'm just conscious of trying to— we're, we're, for instance, we're in Target, she wants the toy. Now I don't know that she's done it to this degree. Chelsea goes a lot more than I do. So, um, but you know, if she were to melt down and cry because we didn't get the toy, like, we're probably not going to do a bribery. Yeah, my point is, but I do— there is a level of, hey honey, calm down. Um, hey, you can keep crying like this. Hey, you can get a toy in the future. We got toys at home. We got that, you know. Anyways, there's a conversation that's happening.

And yeah, I'll give you one piece for there that was really helpful. We had a lady on our— on the show called her name's Anna Skates, and she does this thing on parenting. And she had a lovely piece for this, and she said, well, sometimes what's happening in a meltdown— and she talked about a kid at a store meltdown, uh, let's say you're leaving in, uh, the, you know, Chuck E. Cheese or some fun place, they're having a meltdown, I don't want to leave, I don't want to go, I don't want to go, right? And they're standing at the car, they won't get in the car, they're having a meltdown. And she goes, as a parent, you're typically like, dear God, like, I, like, I, you know, I gotta get this kid in the car and we gotta stop this she said, if you pause for a second, again, remember you're dealing with another human being, not just a child who you need to— all you, you need a behavioral adjustment. But here's another human who's having a moment. She's like, you know, if your best friend was having a meltdown, you probably wouldn't be like, oh dear God, shut up, get in the car, right? Yeah. She said, if you remember that, you tend to get good about being curious. And so, and by the way, and I this is a great little parenting thing, but I think it works across relationships. Pause and go, hey, hey, tell me what you're feeling right there. But tell me why. As soon as you catch your breath, tell me what's happening.

I don't want to leave.

I don't want to go. I, I, I, I'm mad. I'm sad. Oh, so leaving this, it was so fun for you. It, it's really sad for you to have to wrap up your time of enjoyment. Oh, oh, there's a, a word we call this grief. Like, oh, you're, you're just grieving the fact that you have to stop doing something you enjoy. You know what, I know what that's like. I, I have had that feeling too many times in my life. Unfortunately, it's 20 degrees out and it's really cold, and we're gonna get in the car now. But I honor the fact that you're grieving, and you might want to cry for a little bit longer in the backseat. We're not going to cry out here. Like, so, like, yeah, here's the boundary, but here also, but here's also the space for you to have your human experience. And I, I think if we remember that— it's so tempting to judge someone according to how we see the world. And there's that old saying, judge not lest you be not judged in the same way. This is Jungian psychology, by the way. He says that everybody's a— everyone's a screen. And the moment you're annoyed with someone, and the other person is the thing you're unconscious of that's going on in you. That sucks. Yeah. Every time you're annoyed with someone else and you point out their flaw, he— his point is, just so you know, it's the subconscious flaw in you you can't see.

Wow.

Which, by the way, is the spiritual teaching. The moment you point that out, you're actually pointing at something in you.

Yeah, it reminds me of this. We were talking about Anthony DeMello and why awareness is so important.

Yes.

And I think when I think about the people in— we both talked about, we've both spent some time reading about a lot of saints and people that have had a big impact on the world. And when I think about those people, their level of awareness spiritually, self-awareness, social awareness, whether it's a Mother Teresa or a Saint Francis of Assisi or Anthony de Mello or a lot of these people, it is so, so high. Is that something— and I know, I know you, you took time, you traveled around, you know, the Middle East and Europe and all those areas and looked at— is studying saints and poets and those sort of things. Is that something you found? And if, if that's something you found, why is this awareness so important, and how do people become more aware?

Yeah, you know, most of us don't change until we've suffered enough. I wish it were different. I wish it were different. I wish I changed every time I was inspired. And I've been inspired and I have changed, but unfortunately I would say that more drastic change and the stuff that I've given more attention to is stuff that when I've been in pain. Now, I, I happen to believe that pain is part of the human experience, but suffering is optional. So, and there's some semantics here, but If you look at it from this frame, we're all going to experience pain, we're all going to experience loss, we're gonna— there are gonna be things that don't go the way we prefer, um, there's gonna be physical pain, there are going to be things outside of our control, we're going to experience pain. But suffering is when we get caught in a loop. In the suffering, almost always we're right back to the same center. It's because I had an expectation. I had an expectation that I'd be healthy till I was 50. I had an expectation that I wouldn't lose my, my father, my friend, my— right? And so the suffering is all— and this is DeMello— suffering is always, I have an attachment to an outcome. I happen to think these are all spiritual teachers. They all are saying this, right? My suffering comes when I'm attached to an outcome. I don't think there's anything wrong with desire. Desire points me towards something I value. So I can desire it. I'm like, man, I, I desire for peace in the Middle East. I desire for health in my body. I have this desire, and I, I might be limited in my actions, but I'll take the actions that I can. But I can't control the outcome. So I'll act on my desire. That gives me focus, and it gives me, uh, allows me to see where I'm going. But I don't know exactly how it's going to turn out. I can't put it— I can't put it on a time frame. I don't know exactly how it's going to happen. So that to me is actually the epitome of faith. I will take it. Faith is motion. I have a desire, I'm going to act on it. I just— and I can't even imagine what I hope it will be, but I can't control exactly what it will look like. And so when I let go of my attachment to the outcome, I cease to suffer. I may go through difficulty, I may go through pain, may go through hardship, may go through struggle, and that's part of the human experience. But I let go of the suffering when I let go of my attachment to outcome. I think that is where awareness, um, is incubated in the human experience.

That's why busyness too, I think, is such an issue, is because when you're busy, you tend to be less aware. You're so busy, you're just not aware of—

you're distracted.

Anything distracted.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so one of the things fundamentally, when I take people through a process, it's I invite them to take ownership about what they value. And I— so I'll give you an example of one of the exercises I do with people. I actually got this— it's a modification of something I actually first heard from Warren Buffett. But he had people go write down 25 things that you long for, that you want, that you really want. And you use the word long, like long for, like you yearn for this. Write down 25 things. And it's funny, a lot of my men have trouble. They're like, I only got to 14. Like, okay, but I want you to connect with what you want, what you actually you want. I don't care if you want to eat more steak. I don't care if you want to travel to Europe. I don't care if there's a dollar amount. I don't care if it's, uh, look, yeah, I want to be— have a deeper relationship with the Divine. Whatever it is, write down 25. It's vulnerable because I'm actually acknowledging that there's something that I want.

Yeah. Have you found that you, you said men have You, you just mentioned they— I can see men have a— having a much harder time with this than women. And I think it's due to— I mean, it's the same thing, like, is my dad an old military, you know, uh, guy, he's not very vulnerable. My mom, incredibly vulnerable, you know. And so I, I really see that. I think that's a good, you know, and I've read Joseph Campbell, you know, he—

oh yeah, yeah, I love him.

He, he really gets into this hero's journey and really talks a lot about like what the, the core part of it here is they just deeply desire something. Yes, they deeply desire. And this could be everything from Jesus— he deeply desires something. And this, as you mentioned, desire is important, right? You just want to make sure you're desiring the right thing, right? And so I see this being really, really important. And so talk to me about, like, when you're working with clients, maybe— I'd love to hear a little bit more of this process for people. And maybe this is some— something people can do themselves, or maybe someone's an executive, they could reach out to you and, and learn more about some of the coaching you do. But Walk me through a little bit more of the process in terms of— and do you ever say, do you really want that? Like, do you ever have anybody put on a list like, I don't, I want to— okay, understood. No, no, no, because did you ever ask what— let me give you just what I'm thinking is, is that, you know, I had, um, there's, there's someone I'm thinking of and he's— there's actually, there's a lot of people I'm thinking of. They're really successful and we've heard he drives a Lamborghini. He's got this white house, whatever, but he just got a divorce. He's sleeping, right? Like, just— and I just see his light. He's absolutely, totally miserable, right? But I know what he would put on his list, right? And he's actually achieved it all. Yes. So I'm just— and I think these desires are important, but also, I did— you ever ask him, why, why do you desire that? Or why is that to the top on the list? I mean, yeah, I know I just asked you like 7 questions. I'm seeing— feel free to—

where you're at, I'm totally tracking. So I think I grew up feeling this. I grew up with this fundamental belief that eventually was really not helpful for me. The belief was this: I'm responsible for everybody.

Wow. Anyway, keep me. All right. I resonate with it. Well, let me just— and then I'm going to let you keep going. I remember when I first started taking a lot of responsibility, as a student doctor, right before I went out, I started having all these patients. And I went into my pastor at the time and I went in and I sat down and he was just this amazing, like he was a surfer too, like just very aware. And he just didn't say anything, you know, easy. And I'm like, and I just couldn't even look him at the eye. And I was like, uh, Larry, I was like, I feel like I want to just cry and bawl and I have the weight on my shoulders. But I can't, I can't even do that. Like, I just felt this like weight because I was trying to take on— like, if a patient didn't follow the plan, I was like, that's my— uh, everything was on me, and it almost just broke me.

Yeah, I just— yes. And I think this is where some religious systems are not helpful, because like, I grew up hearing things like the blood of people's— their souls are on your hands if they don't, you know, follow Jesus and go to heaven. And like, it's your responsibility to convert people. I, I had a lot of that heavy-handed. And so what it developed in me was a codependency. So codependency defined, a really simple definition, is if you're not okay, I'm not okay. So I have to do whatever it takes to make sure you're okay. So think about how that plays out in your life. If you're not okay I'm not okay. So anyone who— and we, I think we all deal with a level of codependency. Yeah. So because the temptation is always there. But if I'm spending all my time trying, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? And you did— oh my gosh, she didn't follow my plan. You might have cancer, you might get sick, you might— right? And I— and because I was a— I was in church work for years as a pastor, I felt the same thing, like, oh, I'm responsible for you, I'm responsible for— and, and a fundamental shift for me, and it came through a very dark season, uh, it was a really a breaking for me, is to go Oh, you're an adult and you're responsible for yourself.

Mm.

You're responsible for you and I'm responsible for me. We can make agreements, and if I break an agreement, we'll break a trust and we might lose the relationship. But that doesn't mean you're a bad person or I'm a bad person. Doesn't mean now I'm responsible for you, you're responsible for me. Just means we have broken trust, and so we may choose not to be in relationship with one another. But now I don't— I'm not fundamentally broken or shifted because I didn't get you to do a certain thing. And you're not broken because you didn't get me to do a certain thing. So now watch how we go into the 25 longings. Yeah. So now a guy writes down his— or lady, I've coached both— somebody writes down their 25 longings And I, in it, I want a Maserati. I want, like, I want, I want to make, you know, $50 million this year in my portfolio. I want to— whatever thing is, right? Like, okay, it's not for me to manage. Life comes to you as your teacher. And I actually fundamentally believe, go after it. Like, I'm kind of like, okay, let's go. Let Maserati— now, I might ask questions like this. This will be the one place that I— the, the one probably I will ask clarifying questions like, now, does that feel true? I will ask that question. And the reason I'm saying I— if fundamentally I'm inviting all my clients to take ownership, then I want them to really dig in. I'll take that if you're convinced. Yeah, is the thing right now. I want them to dig in because a lot of people spend their time exporting their responsibility to other people. You and I talked about this with doctors. Well, I, I— the doc, whatever the doctor says, Well, what if you did some of your own study and could you take responsibility for your own health? Um, whatever the pastor says, whatever the religious system says, whatever. Like, we, we— I mean, you, you can look through history. World War II, you listen to, you know, I, I've read a bunch on that era of history, and German soldiers are like, well, whatever the Kaiser's, you know, like, whatever. Yeah, you know, whatever Adolf Hitler said, he was— he's my, he's my guy, right? Like, so I export my ownership to what other people tell me I'm supposed to believe or do. I'm fundamentally inviting when I'm with clients, hey, would you take ownership of your own paradigm, how you see the world? And I happen to believe that there is a spiritual connection here that you can tap into. So I'm asking you to tap into that. So I'll say, so I, I might ask the questions, that feel true? Yep, feels true. I want to get them right. I was right. Cool. All right. And by the way, maybe it was great because the guy— oh sure, right? Because, because the guy lived super poor and he was like the Rich Man Poor Man guy, the whole like wonderful. Or another guy's like, I got it. And, uh, you know, we're a week later, what's it like? I had one guy, he bought probably one of the most expensive cars in the city and was like, he's like, it's in the garage. I don't want it to get scratched. And then like, I saw him the next month. I'm like, well, that's— that car is freaking awesome. How— what's that like? He's like, I didn't pull it out of the garage. And then I saw him the next month. I'm like, hey, well, how's the car? He's like, I turned it back in. Well, it was fun to buy it, right? Then it lost the— but so Okay, but it came as your teacher, so I don't mind them writing that stuff down. Oh yeah, because it gets them somewhere.

Yeah.

And when I do the process, by the way— so if somebody wants to do this exercise, it's a really great exercise— write down your top 25 longings, then cut it down to 5. And Warren Buffett says the other 20 are your avoid at all cost.

Wow.

Because you see it, right? Because the neural pathway stuff— where focus goes, energy flows. Disparate attention prevents me from actually getting to the thing I want, because most of us are going to take the path of least resistance, and we get distracted. I kind of want that over here, but if I go, no, no, avoid at all costs, these 5 are the only 5 you're giving attention to.

I mean, mathematically, very close is the Pareto principle, right? Right. I love that. I mean, it's a, it's a good sort of essentialism. Let's focus on the things that matter and And it's a great exercise though. I hadn't heard it done with that, with desires and longings and wants.

That's a—

and now you're only— I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna do it. Actually, I'm gonna do it today. It's really good.

It's fun. And now I get to take ownership, like, okay, these are the 5 things I'm saying I want more than anything. And usually what I'll get is I'll get a little mixture of— they will be items that are measurable that you can get to, like I want to buy a car or I want to make a certain amount of money. And then I'll also get like, hey, I want to feel closer to God, or I want— I want to have the best marriage ever, right? And so I Or it might even be, I want more peace. So it might be a way of being thing. So what I'll say to them then is, all right, we're going to give these attention as we go. These things that are a little bit more ambiguous, we'll get some clarity around them. But they— here's the— here, they remain your 5 until one of two things happens. You achieve the event or the thing, and then once it's done, like I bought the car, I can take it out of my 5. Now I can go revisit my 20 list and pull another one in. Wanted.

Yeah.

Or that way of being that I wanted, it's now— it's become my way of being. And this is where I talk about conscious and subconscious. If you look at a glass of water, this is my conscious energy I have every day. It's all I got. Everybody gets, gets a certain degree of energy every day, right? And you sometimes, maybe you're even around to be like, oh, they took a lot of energy from me, right? You can tell something, you know, the story of Jesus, like, somebody touched me, like something went out. I can tell something Right. So we have this energy. This is kind of what I have when you— oh, I'm so exhausted today. You know, like, I just really spent all that energy, right? So this is my conscious. I can only consciously be attentive to so much. Subconscious, like, what is it, 95% of— I think, yeah, it's driven by the subconscious, right? So my goal is to take those things, those ways of being, and I want to make them part of your way of being and let them drop into your subconscious. So let's say you're like, good, I want to be more patient and I'm not. It's right now conscious energy. Your kid walks up and does a thing, you're like, I want to be more patient. Okay, take a deep breath. Okay. All right, son. All right. And what else did you break? Okay. All right. And, and tell me about the car. Okay.

Right.

Yeah. And I'm, I'm, and I'm worried. I'm being attentive to it. It's in— I'm in my neural pathway, pathway is fusing, and I'm— and now it's, now it's starting a new groove, and now I'm repeating I doing it over and over again, and eventually I keep showing up like this. Wow, this patient thing has become a part of my way of being, and it drops into my subconscious, and now I don't have to give it attention anymore. It's become who I am. This is where the premise— this is to me where neurobiology helps us more than ever before to go, no, you have neuroplasticity. You don't have to say, well, that's just my personality. You can change. Yeah, it might be hard work. It takes— and here's my thing— it takes structure, accountability, and reinforcement. Without those three things, rarely does anyone experience change.

Well, walk me through what those three things would look like with a client.

So, um, let's say a client says, um, I want to be, uh, I want to be more present. I got a lot of high achievers, so this would be a thing that, like, I'm I'm not real present. I'm preoccupied. My phone's right here. I, it's, I, I'm picking it up during the meal. Like, I want to be more present to my kids. Okay, so, um, first of all, what are some— what we get— we'd identify what are the places where you're most distracted, you're not present. I'm thinking about my job, I think my— but let's get— let's get real practical, and we're gonna make some micro shifts. Let's, let's take the phone. It's an easy one. We'll start with the phone. All right, so here's the structure. So when you go home You're going to tell your assistant, I will not be on my phone, or, you know, whoever in the office, just so you know, I'm going to put my phone down and I'm not going to be on it when I get home. I'm home by 6. I'm not going to be on it the rest of the evening. Well, there is no way. I mean, I'm the CEO. This is— I'll tell you what, if there's a problem, call my wife. She'll keep her ringer on. Now I got the emergency thing resolved, but my temptation is I'm going to look at my phone. Oh, and then there's a notification. I should check my fantasy team, right? Right. So this is a little one micro shift. I want to be more present. Here's the structure. Not gonna put my phone, but— and you're gonna see me every week, so I'm gonna— I'm your accountability. So did you put your phone down when you went home? Well, on Monday I did, but on Tuesday I didn't. So this is—

you and I talk.

So do I— do you need a hug? Do you need kicking the ass? Like, we're like, which one right now do I need to give you?

Yeah.

Right. So like, if I'm giving them— if I'm challenged, I'm like, well, I thought you said you valued your kids. So do you value your kids? Do you value your agreements? Yeah. Okay. All right, start over. Give me the next 7 days. Put your phone down. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm on it. Right. Structure, accountability, and then reinforcement. And I do a lot of positive, like, yeah, they'll come in. I made it a week.

Like, way to go.

Like, this is amazing. And by the way, what would it be like? You know what? I kind of listened to the story my kids told, like, in ways I never have before. And I played this— did this puzzle with my daughter, and I watched a movie with my kid, and like, ah, I'm still kind of preoccupied in my head though. I don't know if I'm really present. Okay, now let's work on that, right? So we'll make micro shifts using structure, accountability, and reinforcement. And so, but we'll start at that kind of really practical, tangible level because we don't work in the abstract. Right? Like, life happens in the dirt. So I really try to get people down to, like, let's start with what's the thing that's keeping you from being present. Then we'll start into the mindset stuff. So this would be— I'll stay with it for a second. Let's say, so they go, okay, I'm doing much better. I don't pick up my phone when I go home. I'm there with the kids, but I've still got stuff racing through my mind. All right, next practical thing. You're going to keep a notebook with you. Whatever's in your mind— oh my gosh, I gotta call my CEO about this, and if we thought about this for— I got a marketing idea around this, and that commercial made me think, blah blah blah— you keep a notebook with you, not your phone. You keep your notebook with you and you can write every time you have a thought that's racing through your mind. You write it down and keep writing till all your racing thoughts are out. They out? So go practice that. All my racing— any more racing thoughts? No, I think that's all it is. Okay. Now go get on the floor and play and do— have a tea party with your daughter. Okay, and we'll practice that for a week or 3 weeks or 2 months or however long, right? Like, did that work for the racing thoughts? Yeah, but what is— what— well, now I just keep thinking I need to work out more. Okay, so sounds like maybe there's a discipline you'd like to add to your life. Okay, when are you gonna work out? Well, I maybe like 3 times a week. What days? You So to me, coaching is as granular as possible. I will literally put a calendar up on my screen and go, what time, what day, how long, what's the workout? I don't know what workout, call Dr.

X. Yeah, I mean, I, I think where people tend to fall off is the scheduling part.

Yes, yes.

Like, hey, I'm gonna eat healthier and I'm gonna try, try and work out and whatever, and then they'll go a few days and it's, it's just not solidly in the calendar, like going to job or going to school or whatever it might be. They have to pull it out in front of me. I do this with specialists.

Pull it out. Is it in there? Is it on repeat? What time is it? Do you have an end time? Where will you do it? Because otherwise, if they, if they go, yeah, I want to work out more, okay, good. I'm gonna work out 3 times a week. Okay, great. All right, I'll see you next week.

Accountability is such a big deal. I mean, this is something I think part of our more isolated— and when you— when I spend a lot of time looking at mental health And the studies around loneliness is— it's off the charts, right? It is. It's an epidemic. And that's partly leading to a lot of— I mean, mental health issues have greatly out— out— started to outrun, um, you know, cancer and heart disease in terms of the growth rates are very high. And so, but I think part of it is due to lack of community and a lack of accountability. And I think if you have that, uh, and we talked about this earlier just a little bit, just sort of mentioned, I see this an issue with some of the church today and some of a lot of things is when you don't have accountability. And, and I think, like, when I think about the ways that I've grown the most, it was through mentorship, because I had a mentor pouring into me and giving me advice, or I was going to them and that sort of thing. And then maybe there was a level of accountability attached. And I think the same thing with my team members. When I see the team members that are taking off and growing the most, it's I'm being the best leader when I am connect— saying, hey, Here's your top 5 thing, or we're making an agreement. By the way, that's by far the best thing is when it's like, hey, I want you to pick what the goals are. Yes, I want to. And then we're going to come to an agreement on what it is, and then we're going to meet in regularly for accountability. So what you're sharing, just the way you help people in growing in life and their business, is the same way that entrepreneurs and executives need to lead their team members.

Yes. And, and here's where accountability works. Accountability works if you feel emotionally safe.

Hmm.

Yeah, right. Yeah. And especially in today's society. Shay— Brené Brown, a lot of people know who she is. She got— had a TED Talk that went viral and blew up. But to me, one of her great gifts to the world is she talks about the difference between shame and guilt. She says shame goes after identity, and it tells you you're an idiot, you're stupid, you're dumb. It really, I think, pulls up the core wound or the core lie from your childhood. Yeah, I think everybody takes— the ego interprets their childhood, something in their childhood, and winds up taking a core lie or a core wound. And, and shame just beats the crap out of you with that lie, right? That's shame. It buries your head in the ground, you know, sticks your head in the water, you're gonna drown, you, right? That's the energy of shame. Guilt is different. Guilt says, oh yuck, I don't like that behavior, that's actually not who I am. I want to change that. It's kind of a lighter emotion, more at the top, and it's uncomfortable, and, and it needs to be because it's saying, oh, you know what, I haven't been to the gym in 2 weeks. Like, I don't like the way I feel. I kind of feel guilty. Okay, good. And act on that. The guilt dissipates. I'm gonna take an action. So shaming people, which was a large part of society for a long time— shaming people to me is not helpful. But holding them accountable, letting them feel the guilt of their own broken agreement That's motivating.

You said something that's really powerful there. I just want to point out, so, and of course you know this, but the biblical narrative around this, right? It's like Adam and Eve feeling the shame. This is something that's this, this core identity issue from the beginning of time. And when I think about— there, there's Carl Jung gets into this.

Yes.

Yeah. And really, yes. Of, well, one of the things in relation to that is he talks about I'm curious your thoughts on this. In order for you to grow, he has, he has a quote and it's related to this, and it is, um, if you want your branches to reach up to heaven, your roots need to reach down to hell. And part of that too, he says, is you should know your, your capacity for darkness, but you shouldn't live there. Yes, right. You should be aware that I am a sinner, I have made mistakes. There should be a level of guilt and healthy conviction with it. And when you have that, realizing I'm not perfect, I'm not living in pride, there's a level of humility around that. I am capable of great things. I think sometimes there's a lot of— maybe even some, not all at all, but there are some churches that kind of almost keep people in that level of shame and guilt of saying you're a sinner, let's focus all of our efforts on only that, versus what about the part you're redeemed, you're a child of God, there's a plan and purpose for your life, you're actual saint as the Bible calls you to be, a saint. All these identity issues are so, so big.

It's so true. I'm with you 100%. I, I, I so appreciate you saying that. I totally agree. I, I stumbled across a book years ago, uh, by Matthew Fox called The Original Blessing, and he's like, I think— oh, oh, he— I'm stuttering because I also saw a film on St. Francis, who I know you like. And in this film, I watched this film, this is like a year ago, somebody told me, watch this, uh, Father, Son, Sister Moon. I don't know if I'm getting the title right, but something like this. It's this kind of cheesy '70s movie on Saint Francis, and it's, it's pretty cheesy, but you're kind of watching it. It's, I mean, it's super '70s, and somebody recommended. I'm like, I don't know, this is tough to get through, but okay. I'm watching the film, watching them, and the next thing you know, there's— and I actually in one of my books tell the story of Saint Francis. And so Francis goes in to see the Pope at the And in the film they show this story, and the Pope is Alec Guinness. Alec Guinness, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Yeah. And I'm like, whoa, I thought this movie was cheesy, but Alec Guinness, well, this is cool, right? So the Pope comes out, Francis has this moment, and there's this big kind of disruption that Francis is— he's, if you know any of his story, he's super poor, he lives in poverty, he's dirty, and all these— and all the kind of rich people in the courtroom are like, why was this guy allowed in here? And so, and so he comes in and he's shocked by the opulence and he's like, why have you spent all your money on this? And he's, and he's challenging the court, doesn't even realize, almost like his own naivete. And they immediately start dragging him out and they, they start berating him and judging him. And the Pope gets off his throne, whatever, his chair, walks down the stairs and kisses Francis's feet. And the people are freaking out in the moment. And Alec Guinness playing the Pope says, thank you, we've been so preoccupied with original sin that we forgot about original blessing.

And this is a true story, by the way, sharing.

Yes, is— and I think the term— I think the term in the movie he used was we forgot about original affection. Oh, and I like to kind of like that even more, like that you're loved by God, you're, you, you're liked by the Divine. Like you're not just loved, but even the divine likes you, loves you. You're connected to the divine. You're an expression of the divine. You're an aspect of the divine, as opposed to you're just this horrible person. And I, I'm so grateful you highlighted that because I do think you're right, it gets stuck in our psyche. And, and the Jungian quote is amazing, like, hey, do I have a shadow? Yeah. Do I have an ego? Absolutely. Somebody was talking about these rage rooms. I am— uh, have you heard about this?

I, you know what, I think I have a baseball bat or something. Yeah.

And, but, but I've thought I, because I'm wired a little bit like you, I'm pretty positive guy, upbeat and whatever, but I've thought if somebody took me into that thing with a baseball bat, I probably could go find some rage.

So in, in Chinese medicine, this is interesting, they, uh, if you have— everything's connected, we talked about this— if you have the primary emotion is related to anger, frustration, impatience, and if you're living in that zone, you, you have, you have to release it or else like it actually leads to like chronic constipation and a number of things. So it's called liver stagnation or stagnation to things aren't moving through your system. Interesting. So now they tend to recommend boxing or swimming or they— tennis, pickleball, anything where you're able to hit or whack something or release something. So anyways, that's why there— this goes back thousands of years now. Now I think the, you know, padded room with the baseball bat, it's a whole nother kind of level, but it is a therapy that's been used for a really, really long time.

So good. Because, because that's like, it's, it's in us, right? I'm still gonna have those emotions. And like, I would say that's a development place for me. Is learning really how to feel through my feelings as opposed to move around them. That's my—

and this is part of wisdom and awareness too, is, is I'm not letting my feelings control me. I'm, I'm reading them and understanding something needs to be done. That it's not that I do nothing either, right?

No, that's exactly it. So what I— especially I work with a lot of men, a lot of high-achieving men who don't have time for feelings. So my whole thing is, well, you may not have time for those feelings now, but they're going to show up because feelings buried alive never die. So they're gonna show up somewhere, they're gonna come out sideways, right? And this is what you deal with every day. So, and, and I'm— I am an example of this, working through it in real time. So my practice has been, first, can I name the feeling? Which is hard for me at times because it's inefficient. Yeah, I have time to name a feeling, right? But okay, okay, maybe I might feel a little sad. And now what my practice has been, this is what I invite my clients into, Give it 90 seconds. Doesn't have to change your state. You don't have to become obsessed with this. This does not define who you are. The feeling is like the heads-up display in your car, like, oh, you're running low on gas, right? It's telling you something. It's informative. So you feel sad. So just be with it for 90 seconds. Okay, I think I feel sad. Feel it. Feel all the way through it like a wave, like it's just going to have a pass-through. I feel sad. Is there anything you need to learn there? Ask the sadness. Is there anything you're supposed to be aware of? I mean, maybe I miss my mom and dad. And I'm 53, and my dad just turned 80, and I think at some Christmas I was missing them. I felt a little sadness. Okay, anything you want to do about that? Maybe I'll call them tonight. Okay, anything else? Nope. There we go, right? And off we go. Like, I can continue on, but instead of just avoiding suppressing, repressing. Um, practice feeling them. Yeah, it doesn't— I like the way you said it doesn't define me, it's just a feeling. It's, it's telling you something, it's informing you. And there are feelings we're less comfortable with, like anger and rage and some of those things, but that's, hey, I'm having a human experience, it might be in there. And so be it. Pay it— do I have an expectation? Oh, I'm angry because I got blocked goals. Yeah, I had an expectation that you would act differently. And by the way, I'm going to take ownership and responsibility because we never had an agreement about it. I just had an expectation you, whoever you are, would act differently. And so, um, I'm gonna forgive myself for putting that on you and, and putting myself through that experience because I never invited you into an agreement. I never actually was curious about your perspective. I just made an assumption you'd see the world the way I And that wasn't kind.

This idea around agreements is really important. It's something I, I want to revisit in the future, and I want people to dive into because I think that's so important. I think the list of the 25 things and narrowing that down to the 5 to go after is so good. What was the 3-pronged part? Is, I think, identifying those desires, having structure. Yeah. And then accountability. Accountability.

And then reinforce.

Reinforce that.

Yeah.

So good.

That's how we change.

Um, I love being in your office here. Thanks so much for hosting. You've got a lot of amazing books. I was looking at everything, you know, Crime and Punishment. We got— I looking at, uh, you know, Milton's Paradise Lost and so many good things over here. Um, what is— what are— give me your top 3 in ranking order most life-changing books you've ever read for you.

Um, the first book comes to mind is Exquisite Risk by Mark Nepo, who's a poet. Um, it was life-changing for me because when I read it, he, he gave— you know when somebody says something and you're like, oh, I didn't know how to say that. But that's how I felt in that moment. It was a whole book of that, of like, oh my gosh, you're describing an inner world and experience I've had that I had limited language for. And to me, good coaches and guides and mentors, that's really what we're doing. I feel like in many ways my— I just spend my days as a linguist. Like, I, I give— here's a word, or here's a phrase, or here's a tool, and try it on. Does that work for you? Okay. If not, great. If it doesn't work, okay. But He did that for me. Exquisite Risk. And it just, um, it's just this beautiful poetic expression of the human experience.

Okay, can I tell you, uh, Tim Keller does a sermon on identity, and, and he, he says there's really three things that most impact our identity: stories, slogans, and songs.

Oh, that's good.

Because they all impact your self-narrative. And so what you're saying there, like, poem— like, that's— it's a slogan. It's in a way that you're saying over and over and over again that affects your identity. Yes. It's, it's so powerful. And by the way, you've had a lot throughout our conversation hear a lot of little— anyways, kind of those zingers that I really, you know, brain hooks on, like, it's buried a lot, you know.

Yeah, feelings buried alive never die, like that, which is the title of the book. To me, those are— they're, uh, where focus goes, energy flows, right? At first, I think I heard Tony Robbins say that first time. But when those are, um, they're good for our mind. It's just an easy hook to remember, because remember, we're back— if I want to change, I start in that conscious energy thing. And I got— once with my structure, my accountability, with reinforcement, if I can, you know, focus goes, energy flows. Okay, so what am I attention to. Okay, what am I giving attention to, right? It helps me be accountable. Those little phrases help that way. So, um, Straight Line Leadership, uh, by, uh, it's a Swedish name that I don't know how to pronounce, but it was— when it comes to coaching, it was really one of the most helpful books. And it's really, really action-oriented. So if you're wired in such a way that you're the kind of person that's like, I want less esoteric and less esoteric, and I just want to like like, get after it. It's, it's, it's that. It's really good. And then, um, uh, one kind of connected a little bit more to the spiritual place would be, uh, Universal Christ by Richard Rohr, which was, um, again, it was one of those validating, like, oh, this is how I've experienced the divine. And it felt like someone else had experienced the divine like I did. And, and so for me, it's funny, I read Crime and Punishment last year And I've kind of made an accountable action for me was I want to go back to some of the books I hated reading when I was in high school and college. I want to go back and digest as an adult some of this old literature. Yeah, it was painful. Gosh, I mean, to be in the mind of someone like Dostoevsky.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but, but the— but to be— I can't remember the main character's name now, but to be in his— just be in his head, because, you know, a book is a fiction book, you're, you're in the psyche of the protagonist. Was— it's brutal because this guy is completely torn apart by his own internal resentment. But it was also meaningful. So this is why it's helpful, I think, to read fiction, is it reminds you of like, oh yeah, this is— these are the thoughts we all have as humans. You forget about what happens in our internal dialogue because most of us don't share that with everybody, right? I mean, it's internal for a reason. Yeah. And when you read a fiction book, you're like, oh 'Oh, other people think this too.' Yeah. And the place of validation normalizes, like, 'I'm not crazy.' Yeah. 'I'm just a human having a human experience.' It removes some of the judgment. That, I think, is one of the gifts of fiction. I feel less judgmental about myself, and I go, 'Oh.' Um, uh, I think the great stories too, they have—

it's what you're saying— is they have these patterns that I think we all recognize, and allows to better understand the world.

That's well said. That's it. That's it. And other people, you know. Yeah, the other book I was thinking was East of Eden. I read that, um, earlier this year. And, uh, John Steinbeck, another classic. And oh, it's so good. That one is good. That was not painful. That was really good. And all these different characters, and you're like, whoa, people are really— this is what they deal with internally. And I— it, it— for me, it elicits compassion. Both for myself and for other people. So those would be some of my favorites.

So good. Well, I know you've been doing a lot of interviews here and podcasting recently, and, and it doesn't have to be related to the podcast, but what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Hmm, holy cow, best piece of advice I've ever seen. That's— it's hard because I think I would probably go to different seasons in my life. The advice landed on me different ways. Um, but I think the most fundamental one would be take ownership for your life. That's good. Be responsible for you. I'll add this. I heard, I heard a Russell Brand podcast that somebody sent me a link. I was like, listen, this is so good. And then I heard a John Mayer podcast somebody else had sent me to, uh, listen to this. And I listened to him a week apart, and they'd both been asked this question: what would you go back and say to your younger self? Yourself? And they both said similar things. They both said, I'd go back to my younger self and say, you're gonna be okay. And I was really struck by that. And I think that sense of— there's just— I have my whole life had a temptation to judge myself harshly and to feel a sense of, I'm judging myself harshly because I'm not Um, I felt this constant compulsion to take care of everybody else in this sense that I was always failing. And when I began to let go of that and go, I'll let you take ownership for you and I'll take ownership for me, I don't have to live in judgment, I can live in curiosity, that was a massive shift in my life.

That's good. What's your single best piece of advice for somebody who wants to go from this— was we opened up talking about survival mode to, to thriving?

Um, make agreements. You'll be shocked at just that. If you drop your expectations and replace them with agreements, your whole world will change.

It's so good. That's a big takeaway for me. I, I got a lot from this interview, so thanks so much.

Well, thank you, brother. It's a pleasure and privilege being with you.

Thank you so much. Well, everybody, I want to say thanks so much for being part of this interview with Jamie George. Hey, if you're watching on YouTube, let us know what is your biggest— the biggest nugget of wisdom, that thing that really struck you about what some of Jamie shared with us today. And also Don't forget to subscribe here. And hey, if this impacted your life in a positive way, thank you for being on mission with me and for sharing this podcast and episode. Hey, thanks again to the wisdom of Jamie George, and we'll see you on the next show.