Stop Believing the Lies in Food, Politics & Self

These are manufactured, processed candies full of chemicals. And I just like went through the ingredients with her, even though I knew that there's no way she could comprehend it at that time. It was just my way of like indoctrinating her and letting her know the truth about the food system and all these shiny packages you see everywhere and what's actually in them and why we shouldn't eat them.

Because if you don't and we don't, someone else will.

Yes, absolutely. And they'll tell you the reverse of that, which is you have to eat this. It's so yummy. Look at this beautiful little cartoon character.

Hey everyone, welcome to the Growth Lab Podcast where we uncover the science behind how to grow yourself, your health, your wealth, and take your career and relationships to the next level. I am Dr. Josh Axe. I'm a graduate of Johns Hopkins University. I'm the founder of Ancient Nutrition and Leaders.com. And on today's episode, we're going to be talking to Vani Hari. Or some of you might know her as the Food Babe, and talking about how to take your career and your health to the next level. Uh, you know, Vani has been a really good friend of mine for a long time. You know, we have so much in common with both being thought leaders in the health space but also being entrepreneurs and founders of, of businesses. And Vani is a food activist. She's a New York Times bestselling author. She's the co-founder of an organic food company. And she was named by Time as one of the most influential people on the internet. And Vani started a company called Food Babe to really help change what's going on with American food companies that are targeting things like kids. But she's an incredibly mission-minded entrepreneur, and I'm so excited to talk to her today. Hey Vani, welcome to the show.

Oh, Josh, it is such a fun time to be here with you today because I was really looking forward to this conversation because I just love you as a human being. When we first met so many years ago, I just was immediately drawn to your aura and just everything that you were doing to help people. And I'm just so glad we're friends. So, thank you for having me on.

So, Vani, one of the things that I would love for you to share is about your story. You know, you went from being this corporate 9-to-5 employee to then going and building a multimillion-dollar purpose-driven business. And for me, every time I hear your story, it's just inspiring that you went from sort of this 9-to-5 job you didn't love, you felt stuck in, to doing something where you're literally changing the world. So, can you share a little bit about your story?

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I majored in computer science when I was in college. And so, it was something that I did because I thought it would land me a good job. My brother did it and he was like driving around a Porsche at age, you know, 24 or something. And so, I was like, okay, you know, he's really successful. Look at this lifestyle he's built and maybe I'll just major in the same thing he's majoring in so I can get like an actual job. So I didn't follow my passion throughout college. I just did the work that I needed to do to become a computer scientist. And it was just, it was really kind of draining to do that career because I just wasn't really super passionate about it. I'm super thankful now that I went through that because I learned so much. Through my experience of consulting after I got a job basically out of college to be a consultant. And once you're in computer science school, you know, you learn a lot of different things. You learn problem solving, you learn a lot of math, a lot of crazy hard math, Physics 3, 'cause I was in the engineering school too back then. So they didn't really separate engineering and computer science back then. So I had to take all the engineering classes. And so when I graduated, consulting firms were really interested in people that were in the engineering school or in computer science school because they could problem solve. And so they hired us to join these consulting teams that we would go then work for these C-level executives at these big banks. And we would act like we knew what we were doing. I had no idea what I was doing. And they would teach us like on the spot because we were good learners that we could figure out how to do the work that we needed to do. And I remember one of my first jobs was converting 27 different banks into one system. And back then, if you lived in like North Carolina and you wanted to deposit a check in Georgia, you couldn't do that. And, um, and so we figured out how to switch those systems and, and work in that bank to do that. And I remember working crazy amounts of hours and billing so many, like 60, 70 hours a week to the client. And the way I got away with that is I basically outsourced my body to the corporation. I was eating what everybody else was eating. I was doing what everybody else was doing, not having time to work out or take care of myself or even sleep for that matter. I was eating what they were bringing in for catering for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and I found myself really super sick in that environment. And that's when I hit rock bottom and ended up in the hospital with appendicitis, and that's when I made the decision to finally take control of my health. But I continued working in that environment, so I still continued to work in these large banks in a cubicle environment, you know, sitting for most of the day, doing this kind of work that was very repetitive, not very meaningful. It was fun at times, and I was driven at times, and I wanted to be successful, so I did good at my job, but there was little meaning behind it. And when I started to heal my body through food and nutrition and learning about what— about the foods that I was eating and learning what was actually in them and realizing that the majority of food that I was eating was dead, processed food full of chemicals. When I removed those foods from my diet and I started to get healthier, I mean, everything changed. I started to realize a way of life that I never thought was possible. My brain started working like the— like for the first time on like things that I was super passionate about or wanted to learn about. And I found this ability to like, you know, come home from work and just like sit and read and like do all the things that I wanted to do. And I realized I was super passionate about telling people what I had learned about the food industry. And so I started foodbabe.com as just a fun thing to do. I gave up television for Lent, even though I'm not Catholic. I just decided, you know, this is a good time to give up something. So I have all the free time in the world to work on this blog that I wanted to start. Right before Easter, I remember I hit publish on my first 3 blog posts. My friends were like, "Well, how are you going to share this blog post with us? You have to go on this thing called Facebook." At the time, I had never been on Facebook. I didn't want to be on social media because I thought maybe one day I wanted to run for office, and I didn't want like all my personal information on the web. And so I was really like scared about social media. I'd heard about people who put their, you know, party pictures online and then they get fired from their job. I mean, there was just all the stigma around being on Facebook at the time. And, um, and I was like, okay, fine, I'll join Facebook. And, and I just started sharing the blog on there and started to share it with my friends and my family. And then slowly but surely, I started to share ways that I felt duped, um, throughout my journey as a human being by the food industry. And, and one of the first things I shared was the 100 ingredients in a Chick-fil-A chicken sandwich and how one of the top ingredients was MSG and many other different chemicals they used to, to make that sandwich. And That post went so viral that like my local newspaper wrote about it, and then eventually Chick-fil-A reached out to me and invited me to their headquarters to consult with them and to see how they could make changes. And it was at that moment that I was taking off of work, you know, my banking job, and flying down to Chick-fil-A. And it was, it was quite the experience. I mean, they rolled out the red carpet for me. They picked me up in a cow mobile wrapped in, wrapped in cow print. And they like sit me down in this boardroom full of all the executives at Chick-fil-A— the guy who's like the head chicken supplier guy, the head of marketing, the head of operations— like everybody's there. And they're like, okay, your post went viral, we hear you. Like, what would— what out of all the things you had complaints about our food, what would be the first thing you would change? And I sat there with a whiteboard like I was in my normal job and did a consulting gig, I guess, with Chick-fil-A where I went through all the different line items of, you know, the artificial food dyes in their ice cream and in their pickles, the TBHQ that they were using as a preservative in their oils. We talked about the MSG, but the number one thing that I talked to them about that day was something that I felt really strongly about because I had the opportunity to meet a former general of the US Army, Wesley Clark. And when I met him at an event, you know, the year previous, I asked him, I said, out of all the food issues that are concerning to the world in America, um, what is the number one thing for you? And he said the use of antibiotics in our chicken feed, because the antibiotics, uh, the overuse of them are creating superbugs, and those superbugs can like literally Wipe out the human race. And as a general of an army, my job is to protect humans, to protect Americans. And so for me, that would be the first issue. And that really, when Chick-fil-A asked me to prioritize all the things they wanted to change, that conversation I had with that army general really rang through my head. I go, okay, out of all these things, yes, I wanna change them all, but the number one thing is you have to stop the use of antibiotics in your chicken feed. And the head chicken guy in the room was like, listen, there's just not enough. 'Chicken farmers that are doing this.' And I said, 'It doesn't matter. You have to create the supply. You have to negotiate and convince these farmers to make the change for your supply because you buy enough chicken.' And, and, you know, at the time Chipotle was on the up and up and they were doing like antibiotic-free chicken. I said, 'If they can do it and they're figuring it out, I know you guys can too.' And within 2 years of that meeting they had actually within a year of that meeting, they made the commitment to go antibiotic-free. And then within 3 years of that meeting, they were going, they were completely antibiotic-free in their chickens.

You know, Vani, with your success, there has been, there have come a lot of attacks. I remember when you were launching some of your campaigns, you've had some of these large companies come and just come against you. You know, with Chick-fil-A, obviously it's a virtuous company, a business with a lot of values and character. So they were open to change, but you've had a lot of other companies, I think maybe Kellogg in particular, who just, you know, took all of their resources to attack you and try and ruin your reputation. How did you deal with that?

Yeah, so at the time, this was a really dark kind of period of my career because I was being attacked online. I had all of these negative comments. I wasn't sure how to deal with the hate. I mean, I was having articles written about me that were going viral. Telling me I was full of shit. It was really difficult, especially when, for example, the New York Times came out with a piece talking about my work and they mentioned 3 different characters in them, 2 of them being paid by Bayer and Monsanto directly. They didn't mention their conflicts of interest. They also mentioned a guy, Dr. Fergus Clydesdale, and I'll never forget his name because he was on the board of Sensient Technologies, the company that makes caramel coloring level 4, the caramel coloring that is linked to cancer and that I was calling out being in the pumpkin spice latte at Starbucks. And he was getting paid like hundreds of thousands of dollars to be on this board, and they didn't show the conflict of interest in the New York Times article. And so around this time, I remember I just used whatever I was learning about what was happening and would share it online and The wonderful thing about creating a community of people that not only care about their health, but they also care enough to share this information and sign petitions and go meet me at the headquarters of these companies and get them to change. They were willing to take on these trolls head-on. People would be out there fighting on my behalf online. It was like the Food Babe Army versus Monsanto online. It was really crazy, and I just remember there was a point in time where there was all of this negativity being launched at me, and I called my friend Gabrielle Bernstein, who is an incredible thought leader, and I asked for her guidance, and she prayed to God with me on the phone, and she says, "Give Vonni the knowledge and the power and the, um, and the courage to keep going because I really did feel like quitting. And I just remember her, like, she was channeling, you know, like, her spirit. I mean, she's so spiritual. She's just like channeling these spirits, and the spirits were coming down and they were like telling her like, this is the— this is what you need to do. You need to focus on the willing, the people who are willing to change and want to learn this information, and stop focusing on the people that are trying to stop you. And so the first thing I did was turn off Google Alerts alerts. So I, at that point in 2015, it's now been 8 years since I had Google Alerts on. So I have no idea what people say about me anymore on the internet. Before, I'd always get an alert when there'd be a news article or something being said about you or your name being mentioned. It would send you an alert in your inbox. And now I don't receive that anymore. And it's been the biggest blessing not receiving that because my work isn't determined anymore by what people say, whether it's good or it's bad. It's determined by my passion and what I want to see in the world and what I want to change in my mission to help everybody.

Yeah. You know what, one of the things that, uh, I know that I've always been, uh, so impressed by, and, uh, you know, I, I really love to be able to connect with people like yourself and associate with people like yourself who are just very authentic, you know? And so the thing is, like, even when I watch, you know, if I'm reading one of your emails that you're sending out from whether it's Food Babe or Trevani or whatever company, it's, you know, you're sharing things and having a conversation with people like you would a friend or a family member. And so that's something I've always really appreciated. And I think when a lot of times people get into, um, you know, their careers and in business, sometimes people start to divide their lives in different categories. And this can happen, as you meant, it could be spiritually. Hey, my spiritual life is over here. My work life is over here, my family life is over here. But I think when people operate out of a really high level of authenticity, it's sort of all one, right? And so part of your maybe spirituality is, is your purpose-driven mission to save and transform humanity and make people healthier, right? And you're going to say the same thing to your audience as you would to, you know, and to help their kids as you would to, you know, one of your best friends and helping their kids get healthy, whatever it is. And so I think that level of authenticity, it's something that so many people are hungry for because as you mentioned, you felt duped in your career early on by a lot of these health companies. And I think that's the way a lot of parents feel. In fact, you know, one of the next questions— I'm jumping a little bit ahead of something I wanted to get into, but I just think it's so relevant right now. You know, one of the things I've heard is people went through the pandemic over the, you know, in just the past few years. Is some people said, you know what, I kind of, I felt a little duped when I've been watching the news and a lot of the stuff that's on TV and everything else. I felt like the doctors and these authorities, whether it's Fauci or someone else, was saying one thing. And I come to find out later that's just completely inaccurate. And also there's such a high level of leaving out the details, just the sins of omission. Right? And so, was there anything for you— and I'll jump back and ask you some questions too, because your, your career and creating a movement is so powerful— but I did want to ask, do you have any lessons from, uh, COVID? I mean, has your life changed because of it, or your perspective on things at, you know, coming out of that?

Well, what was so beautiful, um, going into COVID that happened for me personally was because of all of the information I learned when I was reading— when I was writing my book, Feeding You Lies, which is my second book, where I go into the food industry's playbook and how they use front groups and paid-for experts to bring forth their ideas of how they want to sell their products, whether it's Coca-Cola paying Harvard scientists to say that it's exercise that are making people— the lack of exercise making people fat and not sugar in Coca-Cola, or finding out that, you know, the majority of health information that we're getting is being funded by one of the big food companies or the big conglomerates that are selling, you know, corn, soy, and canola oil. You know, finding out all of that information and seeing the inner webs of how it all works behind the scenes and writing about that and then sharing what happened to me, like in terms of trying to take me down as a messenger. I'm just like a girl from Charlotte. I'm just out there sharing what I know. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a nutritionist, but I know that there are so many scientists and nutritionists and nonprofit organizations that were backing what I was saying in terms of taking less risk with some of these additives and the reasons why a a lot lot of these additives that I was campaigning against were being banned in other countries because of health issues associated with them. So I knew I was in the right and I was speaking the truth. And so for me to receive that onslaught of hate and of just trying to take me down as a messenger, when COVID happened, It was an, an opportunity for me to become very critical of what I was being told from the media, from the different government officials who were telling us how to take care of our health at that point in time. And when I realized that nobody was talking about the main things that keep us healthy as adults, like the exercise, the eating whole foods, real foods, doing things that would increase our immune system. And I watched politicians say, hey, you can get free McDonald's if you go get this vaccine. And seeing the type of advertising that was involved, like, oh, Krispy Kreme's giving free donuts for everybody who gets a shot today. You know, seeing that just complete utter regard for human health in the advertising and the pushing of drugs to the American public, that's when I realized that there was some other bigger mission here that's happening with this agenda and that I needed to look in deeper and figure it out. And so for me, I was— when I think about that time, I get so sick to stomach because so many people that I love and that I care about were so convinced of everything that was coming down from the media and through newspapers and through our public officials. And they didn't have this understanding because they hadn't gone through what I had gone through and they hadn't seen the inner webs of how this all works behind the scenes and what money is at play and who's actually, you know, orchestrating this agenda.

Yeah. You know, one of the things that I'd be interested to hear, hear, hear what you have to say about this and just a few thoughts. But I think that, you know, at first, as we were going through that pandemic, I was very frustrated because it was very similar thing to you. It's feel— I feel like we have a perspective, we've seen behind the curtain. And so we realize what's going on. In fact, you and I, and some people watching or listening to this as well, We can spot the manipulation a mile away, and we know what's going on. And I was so upset because I had especially some friends, a few family members, but really a lot of people I knew, and I thought, wow, you just, you know, I, I thought you might have a level of, of wisdom, uh, around what's going on, and, and I, and I guess you don't. So I even felt a few, you know, I think there were people that I grew closer to through that process of saying, well, these are people that are courageous. These are people that are standing up. These are people that, uh, they want to fight for what's right. And there are other people saying, hey, whatever you tell me to do, I'm just going to do, and whether it even feels morally right or not. And so, you know, I think I really, uh, some friendships were strengthened, some were hurt, or, or, or just sort of like, you know, we drifted apart from some people. Did you experience that with any, any, any friends or anyone as you went through this?

Yes. And I think that's what's so disheartening about the whole situation is very close family members completely on the other end of the spectrum in terms of the information that I wanted people to see in terms of knowing the truth about how to take care of our health. Right. If there's anything that we learned through that entire episode in our life, it's like, like, how do we take care of ourselves? Because we can't stop a disease. We can't stop if there is some type of virus that comes and tries to attack us, right? We can't necessarily stop that. But how do we get the healthiest, right? And how do we promote that? And when I was seeing that the majority of solutions had nothing to do with actual human health and how to make us healthier. That was very upsetting to me. Then just to know that a lot of my family are doctors. They're infectious disease doctors. They're working in these departments where they're getting the letters from the heads of government to do these certain things and that this is the way that it's going to be. It's like they're so indoctrinated in their ideology that they can't see the bigger picture. And, um, and so yeah, I, I did lose, uh, some friendships because of kind of what I thought. And, and, you know, the thing is, is like, I'm one of those people that don't get easily offended. Like, if you're a person that doesn't think like I am but we have other things in common, I'll still be friends with you. Yep. But for some reason, what happened during the pandemic, because it was so intense, it, it really did kind of drive apart the community that I had, and, and I had to find a new community, if that, if that makes sense.

It does. You know, I had a, I had a, I had an opportunity to be around a, um, this guy, it was a pastor, really, really, um, just incredible guy. And he said, you know, I was, we were in the middle of this and I was, I was meeting with him and he had flown in from California California, and we were chatting, and I was just saying, you know, this has been such a challenge for certain things. And he said, you know, Josh, as a leader, you should take joy in this because there are some people that never get the opportunity to display and act as a leader. He said, you know, the greater the challenge, the greater you have the opportunity to lead and transform the lives of people. And it was really good for me to hear that too, just from the standpoint of I shouldn't sit in a place of just feeling this pain of disappointment and regret and everything about sort of— because again, I think I felt disappointed in a lot of people in terms of how they were acting and just sort of walking blindly. But instead, I felt after he said that to me— this is kind of early in those stages— I felt more inspired, realizing, you know what, um, I— God has equipped me to have a platform and a voice, and I need to go out there and speak the truth and help transform lives and do what I've done all along, only there's more at stake now. And so, you know, I think that, you know, that, that mindset was important. You know, another thing, I had a, a magazine, and this was something that bothered me a little bit. I had a, uh, one of the— it might be the largest Christian magazine. I, I had did a, uh, I'd done a talk. This was really early stages of pandemic, the spring, and I'd done a talk on— there's a study released on comorbidities and that being the biggest root cause of of pandemic deaths. And so I, in this talk, I went through and I said, okay, the people that are really at risk here are people over the age of 70, and specifically people who are obese, have diabetes, heart disease, and major immunodeficiencies. And I said, outside of that, I think most everybody should be operating as is, as normal, but everybody should focus on boosting immune systems. And I go over all the stuff you and I would tell people Eat more zinc-rich foods, spend more time outside, just the very, very basics of just good living. Like, and they wrote this hit piece on me of saying I'm not evidence-based, and it just was, you know, it's just crazy. So we see this all the time. You know, one other thing you said, and I think this is one of the things that why I trust you more than I do most physicians, and it's because, you know, as I was reading, I've been spending a lot of time reading psychology and philosophy recently and going back to some of the philosophers like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. And one of the things Aristotle essentially alludes to in his writings is that, um, you know, they start— they started getting into a little bit about science, but they really talk about how virtue is really the most important layer. And to a degree, it's also your sort of spirituality, but your, your virtue and character is the foundation that science should be built upon. Because if you go and do a study and you're not 100% virtuous and having— and displaying the highest level of character integrity, it will give you false results. And so, you know, when we look at our scientific community today, when we look at the biggest lawsuits that have ever been out there, we've seen they're almost all pharmaceutical companies or tobacco companies. And so going out there and saying for people to trust what most conventional doctors or pharmaceutical companies or the FDA is saying 100% It's just a lack of wisdom because we see time and time again they are, uh, ruining our trust and they're, they're not doing it with 100% virtue. And so that's the thing. I'm not, I'm not saying you're 100% virtuous, but hey, let me grade you somewhere in the 90s and other people are scoring an F. It's like, I know that when you're saying something, you are much more trustworthy than a lot of these other people. And I think that's something people are waking up to. And I also do think at first I felt about— let me say, I feel like more and more people now have decided the past year to stand their ground and say, I'm not going to take anymore, especially when it comes to the health of our kids. And that's one of the things I know you've been on such the front line of, especially as a mom now. So maybe speak to that for a minute. It's like, you know, hey, Mama Bear's coming for you. Like, I'm not putting up with this anymore. So talk to me a little bit about how, you know, you've gone from being a mission-minded, building a company probably worth over $100 million now, and what you've done to now, you know, you know, have two kids, being a mom. Like, how does some of that transition from, you know, that to, to, to what you're doing? You know, I know you're doing both now, but to being a mom.

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, one of the things that— one of the reasons I started TruVani was because I found myself in this position of like, I had just become a mom, and, and becoming a mom softens you. You know, you kind of lose that fight in your body. I think it's on purpose so that you're more nurturing to your child. Being on the front lines going up against these giant corporations wasn't something that I felt comfortable doing at that moment because I was just finding my fitting of being a mom. I found myself in this position of like, "I still want to change the food industry. I still want to make an impact. Why don't I create my own products of the products I I want to see in the world. I started doing that with Truvani. One of the first things we did was protein powder because a lot of the protein powders out there had ingredients in there that were controversial or had things in there that I just didn't want to have in my products anymore. I wanted to create a product that had the least amount of chemicals in it as possible. I wanted to have the best third-party testing, heavy metals. I wanted to test it for glyphosate, which a A lot of pea protein out there is contaminated with glyphosate. It was super important for me to create a product that I felt really good about taking and then that other people would feel really great about having as well. It's been just an enormous success. We just launched in Whole Foods, which is so cool. Now that I'm a mom of 2, I have a 2-year-old and I have a 6-year-old. I just feel like we have the greatest responsibility out of any of our generations to tell our children the truth about food. I started when my daughter was like 10 months old. I remember she was at the airport with me. We were on a business trip and she was sitting there playing with all of the Snickers and the Skittles and the M&M packages that were on towards the ground because she was crawling all over the ground. She wasn't even walking yet. I just remember telling her at that moment, even though she was 10 months old, I just told her the truth about what she was playing with. I was like, "These are manufactured, processed candies full of chemicals." I just went through the ingredients with her even though I knew that there was no way she could comprehend it at that time. It was just my way of like— indoctrinating her and letting her know the truth about the food system and all these shiny packages you see everywhere and what's actually in them and why we shouldn't eat them.

And so— Because if you don't and we don't, someone else will.

Yes, absolutely. And they'll tell you the reverse of that, which is you have to eat this. It's so yummy. Look at this beautiful little cartoon character on it or whatever, right? And so we as Parents have just the awesome opportunity to tell them the truth about food, whereas my parents didn't have this information at all. They didn't know anything about nutrition. They came here as immigrants and they were like, "Wow, this food is so cheap and it's so readily available. We'll feed it to our family. They'll grow and be fine." Little did they know that all the stuff that I had been eating most of my life was just full of toxic chemicals and overly processed and devoid of nutrition. I want my kids to know the truth. I tell them, there's a lot of mom shaming online about saying that a food is good or bad. I don't believe that anyone needs to be shamed about knowing the truth about our food. We have the obligation to do that for our children so that they are armed with the facts. Now, if they decide to eat that food later on in life, and they make that decision on their own, so be it. But at least you did your job as a parent and told them the truth and didn't try to say that, oh, this isn't a good or bad food. No, there are definitely bad foods out there, right, that we shouldn't even be consuming, that shouldn't even be produced by food manufacturers. I mean, I'm just thinking about Kellogg's right now. Kellogg's is a company that sells artificial dye-free food to people overseas because in Europe Europe, it has a warning label if you use an artificial dye that says, "May cause adverse effects on activity and attention in children." But here in the United States, our FDA is asleep at the wheel. They don't have that warning label. So instead of serving us the artificial-free dye cereals that they already know how to make and are making safer and better for children overseas, they sell us the more toxic version because it saves them money.. And a company like that, I feel, is so unethical. It needs to change. But also, we have to arm our children with the facts of when they pick up that box of Froot Loops, like, what's actually in that?

Hey, but, Vani, you know what? One thing that we're seeing a lot right now of— we're seeing companies be boycotted, right? So we've seen, we've seen things like Bud Light and Target. And I mean, there's been, you know, a number of companies. And, and 10 years ago, people weren't as determined as they are today. And I'm curious because, you know, one thing I know, obviously you've done this in the past. I really feel like if you would continue, you know, as you continue to do some of these initiatives, I think that I'm excited for when parents take a stand and say, we are not going to buy, you know, name the sugary-laden soups, you know, cereal company, whatever it is. We're not going to support you anymore permanently. And so I'm really hoping, and I know this has already happened with what you've done, right? You've done so much and people are focusing more on natural brands, but I'm really hoping that this continues to happen more and more.

Yeah, it's, it's been something that now that I'm in that like less of like that nurturing phase of, of my children, I mean, I'm still breastfeeding, so it's like I've been breastfeeding for 7 years, so So it's like, I still have that attachment to my children that's innate where I have to be very close to them. But it's like, as soon as my little one just goes to school and detaches from me a little bit, I just see myself going and doing a big campaign again to try to make this happen. Because if it isn't us that's doing it, the government's not gonna do it.

And— And let me know, 'cause I wanna be a part of it. We should get a whole group people and just all do it at the same time.

Yeah, no, that would be absolutely amazing. And it's— it needs to be done. No one's done it in a very long time. I think one of the first companies that needs to change is Kellogg's because they're already making these cereals safer and better. They don't have to reinvent the wheel. They don't have to start with a new formula. They're already doing it. And the worst part about it all, Josh, is when I started a petition in 2015 to get them to do this, They committed to doing it within 3 years. They failed on their commitment. They lied to us. Instead, they created new cereals like Baby Shark and Unicorn that are more hip to children today with these artificial food dyes. It's maddening what's happening over there. Fast forward now to my daughter who was 10 months old, I was teaching her about the packages and the labels and the ingredients, and fast forward to her now. She's 6 years old, and I have to tell this story about when she was at school recently. It was like one of the last weeks of school, and the headmaster sends out a note and she says, "Hey, it's going to be ice cream day at school. We just want you guys to know." And so of course I write back in 2 nanoseconds. I'm like, I would love to provide the ice cream for school that day. Just let me know how much and what to do and da da da da. And the headmaster writes back. She goes, "No problem, Bonnie. Thank you so much." much for your offer, but we have it covered. And I was like, oh, what are they gonna do? I wonder what kind of ice cream they're gonna have. Like, what's gonna go on? Like, there's just so much bad stuff out there, you know. My, my wheels are just spinning, right? And I'm like, okay, Bonnie, just let this go. Kids will be kids. She's gonna have ice cream day. Everything's gonna be fine. And so the day ice cream day rolls around, and I'm dropping off Harley at school, and I rolled down my window The headmaster always greets us as we're dropping off our children, and I said to her, "So, what do you have on tap today for ice cream day?" I just had to know. She goes, "Oh, it's going to be great. We have an ice cream truck coming." I'm like, "Oh, goodness. Ice cream truck." Like, the worst of the worst in there, right? I'm just like, "Oh, gosh. Okay. Well, I'm wondering what she'll choose, but it will probably be awful, and I just have to get over it. It will be fine." comes home from school and she's so excited to tell me about ice cream day. And she says to me, she goes, "Bonnie," she goes, not Bonnie, "Mom." She says, "Mom," she goes, "Mom, I just want you to know that I think I picked the best ice cream at the ice cream truck." I said, "Oh, well, what'd you get?" And she said, "Well, I got the ice cream sandwich because all of the other things were really brightly colored. They were like a bright yellow or a bright red. And I got I got the ice cream sandwich. I go, "Oh, well, was it good?" She goes, "Well, first of all," she's like, "it was double the size of the ones we get at home because I get the little mini ones that are organic." She's like, "It was this big." I was like, "Oh, so it was a huge ice cream sandwich." She's like, "Yes." I go, "Was it good?" She goes, "It was so good." She goes, "You know, I think I made the best choice." I said, "I think you did too. I think that's great." As soon as she's done telling me the story, I couldn't help it. I could not help it. I immediately go Google what's in a typical ice cream sandwich just to know what she ate, right? The ingredients. An ice cream sandwich still has artificial food dyes in it, a typical one, unless you get an organic one. It has caramel coloring level 4 to make the little chocolate wafer They're not using real chocolate in there. They're using caramel coloring level 4 to make it brown. Then in the white ice cream, they're using titanium dioxide. I'm just like, "Are you serious?" Even my daughter, who thought she was making the best decision, still failed in terms of making the best decision because it's just so full of crap. This is the problem we have in the world right now. These— I mean, I'm so proud of her for even just using problem-solving skills and thinking about it. I think she's probably one of the only children that actually thought about a good decision to make at the ice cream truck, just based on everything that I'm teaching her and about food. But like, it was just— it was such a moment of like, I can't believe even this that she thought was going to be healthier ended up being just as bad as the other stuff.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, first off, I, yeah, I mean, I feel proud of her for the fact that she was, I mean, you know, using critical thinking in order to what's the best choice to make. And, and given her scenario, you know, of picking something, she, you know, sounds like she still made the best choice. But yeah, it's, it's, you know, they will sneak the most unbelievable things in everything. And so it's just sort of the way it is. But I know as a, uh, you know, I felt this as a parent too. I'm just, you know, Like, and it sounds like you're acting in a similar way to where Chelsea and I have been, to where I think when I was, um, but especially before I was married, I was so strict in what I ate. I mean, it was like I would not touch a grain, you know. And then I think over time, I, you know what, just, and, and this was out of like, this was a conscious choice of realizing, I think some of the people that choose to like eat, try and eat 100% perfect Sometimes I see them being more unhealthy because there's a level of sort of stress and obsessive stress that kind of goes along with it. So, so Chelsea and I with Arwen, again, we still— if anybody would go to our home, your home, the same, it's going to be— they're going to go in there and be like, okay, this is really healthy. There's a billion supplements and the foods are organic and grass-fed and everything, you know, a lot of vegetables and berries and what— and that's still our house. But like, even when Arwen was little, like, we, we actually put in intentionally, um, like a little bit of peanuts, a little bit of like certain things, sort of like this sort of microdosing, in order for her to make sure, uh, because there are studies showing she would have a less chance of having allergies and things like that. So I think that we— like, there's this place, and they drive me a little bit crazy with it, but in our, you know, our— when our 3-year-old is just so darn cute, but they give her this pink macaroon every time she goes in there, and I may have to be like I'm like, guys, can you not? Like, they just give it to her for free. So we have this place. And so anyways, but, but, you know, we're doing our best to give her as little as possible, but sometimes it's like, you know what, a little bit, a little bit, and they're just going to be just fine, you know? So anyways, but yeah, I mean, you have to look the other way sometimes.

Like, you can't be 100%. And I'm, I'm all about that because— and that's one of the reasons why I I wrote Food Babe Family, my book that's coming out in October. It's an intimate look at how my family operates, all the habits that we do on a daily basis, how I raise my two children, how I got them from breastfeeding to real food and the process of that, as well as all the things we do when we're in these situations at school or when we're traveling or what do we do at events. I just remember taking my daughter to Daniel Tiger Live and everybody around us is eating Dippin' Dots and Goldfish. I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, what is going on?" When you're in your own little bubble for so long, you just realize that, "Wow, we have so many things to change," but also to inspire other parents to know that they don't have to just go along with the program and go along with all the toxic foods that are out there. They can actually bring their own foods and like have different strategies in place so that they can have things available for their kids that are healthier.

So yeah, yeah, that's so good. I want to jump back and talk for a minute just about coming out of the pandemic. And one of the things I think that was— that I grew an awareness of as we've, you know, gone through this over the years is, um, you know, being very conscious of— and, and I'd mentioned this earlier, I've spent a lot of time studying ethics and philosophy and psychology. And, you know, and there's many different sort of ethical theories, but one of those is called virtue ethics. And the idea there is, how do you know what's ethical and what's not? And virtue ethics, and I think for many people, they would say that, you know, the most ethical thing is based upon what the most ethical person would do. So, you know, when I was a kid, we— I was in church and we wore this little bracelet. It was— it had WWJD on it, and so it was what would Jesus do. But it's that sort of idea with, with some of the other people. If you are running a nonprofit organization, it's what would Mother Teresa do in that situation? How does she think? What does she— and so if you want to know what to— like, if you want to do— if you want to do the most moral and ethical and good in a certain situation, what would somebody do, like that person that you know is the most virtuous and kind-hearted, and what, like, what would they do? And so the question is this, is that, you know, have you gone over the past several years, who are some of those people that you kind of might look at? It could be in the business world, could be in your family or friends, other people that you're saying, you know what, this is somebody that I think I've really come to trust, and I may even think about what they do in certain situations. It might be a hard question, but that's—

yeah, that is a hard question. You know, I was thinking about this the other day about like people who I would just want to sit down with and like and just be around their aura so that I could like gain that. And I thought about people who are actually very virtuous in that respect. And one of the people that is coming to mind is Zach Bush. Zach Bush is someone that like, you know, we've been friendly online, but I haven't met in person, and I've just been listening to some of his talks and his podcasts that he's done with various people. He's got this connection to nature that is— and just the connection of knowing the medical side of everything because he was a doctor doing cancer research and looking at chemotherapy and understanding how cells become cancerous and going through all of that and understanding that, but then also understanding the other side of how to become really healthy and what we need to do as humans to save the Earth. He's someone that just came to mind when you asked that question. There's other people in my life that I've always been just drawn to because again, they're very connected to nature. That's like Laird Hamilton, the big surfer, who— the type of surfing he does, he has to be so in tune with what's happening with nature and the wave and the water and everything. Then thinking about the courage it takes and the risk-taking that he does with his body and with his work in terms of what he's able to accomplish physically is so inspiring. Aspiring to me that I really look up to him too. And it's funny, I met his wife recently in a podcast. She interviewed me and I just was like, "I love your husband. I think he's amazing." And it's not like I love him like that, but it's just like he's— Somebody asked a question at a party once and they're like, "If you could come back as anybody in this world, who would you come back as?" And I said, hands down, Leonard Hamilton. Like, to be able to have that no fear and surf those giant waves and be like helicoptered in and all of that, like, that is the coolest thing ever. And to just be one with nature all the time like that, that would be really neat. So yeah, those are the two things that come to mind.

Two guys.

Yeah, it's two guys too, it's not a woman, which is so weird. But yeah, it's two guys.

Yeah, you know, I, I interviewed Zach, this is probably about two years ago, and then actually Gabby about 2 years ago, uh, uh, like, Larry's hus— wife. And, um, yeah, great people. You know, I was really— now, now let me say this. I, I probably disagree with Zach on, um, how fast the climate is changing and all of the reasons why. So we probably have a little bit of a different perspective on that. But I was so appreciative about— he does have this sort of, um, uh, connection, appreciation. I You know, I always love being around people that have this sense of sort of awe and wonder about creation and the world and the earth. And like, he's one of those people, he's almost like a— in a really positive, uh, admirable way, he, he loves this planet, he loves nature, he loves it. And so there really is almost a sort of just deep— you can see the sort of relational connection he has to the planet and just such a deep care. I mean, he really, really wants to see this planet turned into a paradise. You know, I think about sort of my own faith and what I feel like I'm called to do, and it's love God, love people, turn this planet into a paradise. And so the original story of Genesis is we were supposed to take this Garden of Eden, this paradise, and sort of make the entire planet that. And that's part of what he's trying to live out. It's turning deserts into tropical rainforests or food forests, right? So anyways, I, I, I see your point there. It is really an amazing thing. And then again, with, with Lard, it's there's also this level of just being in this sort of euphoric zone of doing this, this, you know, I think about, and I'm bringing this back again to sort of this biblical thing, but there's a parable of the talents, and it's the, you know, it's such an inspiring thing when somebody has a talent and they take it to the highest level possible, right? Like an artist like Michelangelo, in a way. I mean, he really is a practicing artist. I mean, when you watch him, and I've watched enough surfing and watched him that it is sort of this inspiring, exciting thing. So anyways, I think those are, those are, those are good answers.

I just love that you also pointed out that you may not agree with everything that, like, Zach says, or anyone for that matter. And I don't— I'm not sure I agree with everything Laird or Zach do either. And so it's, it's, it's just a certain part. And I think that's what's so beautiful about humans is like, you don't have to adhere to 100% 100% of one human, there could be pieces and parts that you just love and you care about and that inspire you. And I think that goes to show you, like, I think everyone in my life, there's pieces and parts that I absolutely love, and there's some things that I may not like, right? I mean, even about your husband, like, even about my husband, sure, you know, my kids even, like, so I mean, there are things that— so it's just, it's, it's beautiful, like, that we can talk about people that love, but also like show the fact that like, you know, we might not agree on everything. And I love that because I just— I think that is so needed in this world right now, especially with leadership, understanding that not everybody thinks the same and everybody will do the same. And we don't have to be all around the same people in order to like survive, that we can learn from each other's points of views. And I think that's really important.

Yeah, so this brings me to a question, um, And you can feel free to pass on this one. But I want to talk politics for a minute. And by the way, here's what I want to say because this just leads in so well. You know, I'm going to bring up several potential presidential candidates. And when I'm going to do this for you too, when we're discussing this, we're going to stick more about sort of the health and maybe some freedom, some of the aspects, maybe even how somebody would handle a future pandemic. So when we talk about this, we're not endorsing and talking about every single thing and agreeing with them. And by the way, this is a major issue today. The fact that if I would bring up somebody that I admire a certain area of their life, but if they're maybe not admirable in another, I mean, just the attacks could just be, you know, sort of continuous. But anyways, so going back to this, you know, it's been so interesting. Like you said in your opening that you had, you had, you had thought about politics, right? And by the way, you know, first off, I know at this point, knowing what you know and how challenging it is, you might be like, you know what, there's no way.

Ever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I figured— and I've talked to enough politicians to realize this is just, you know, I think they're— and by the way, I really respect them. I think it takes a very specific type of person to do that. And obviously, I think you and I feel like we can make an impact in our platforms in other ways. But, you know, as we have— the world is just so divisive right now. And there's a book I love. It's called Team of Rivals, and it's about Abraham Lincoln. And Abraham Lincoln was running as a Republican, but the person who was running against him as a Democrat, he brought on as his vice president, Seward. And so, I mean, it's amazing. Like, he was— he had this idea that I'm going to take— I don't care, you know, necessarily what side they're on for those things. If somebody is very skilled in one specific area, I'm going to put them in a certain place. And so, you know, I was thinking about this as I was thinking about these political candidates. I'm not a, you know, I'm personally not a, not, not, not a, not a Joe Biden fan. And I have more probably conservative values and more maybe libertarian values, too. But all that being said, you know, I've looked at people like— I don't know if you followed Vivek Ramaswamy. I'm not sure if I'm saying his name exactly correct, but I've been really impressed with some of the things he's put There's some things I like DeSantis did in Florida. RFK, there's a lot of things I don't agree with, but I will say this, there are a lot that I do on the health front. I think he would do an incredible job with. And so you don't have to say, hey, this is who I'd vote for. But do you have any thoughts on as you sort of look at this, you know, these sort of presidential landscape, are there any sort of views or things that any of those people have said that you've thought, you know what, I think that's a really good point and that's something that's that's needed.

Yeah, you know, I used to be really into politics. So, you know, I grew up with a like staunch Democratic family. I remember my dad voting for Dukakis against George W. Bush, or George Senior Bush, back in the day. And I remember he was the only one voting voting for him and was so proud to wear the button and we were in line. And I just remember learning a really important lesson that day, which is to stand up for what you believe in. And that was the message I got, whether he was on the right side of the debate or not at that point in time. And so I grew up in this family that was just so political. We were so happy to be able to vote. It was so important. To the point where I ran to be a delegate for different presidential candidates. I was at the Democratic National Convention. I actually used my platform there to lobby for the labeling of GMOs. I stood up in front of the Secretary of Agriculture on the front row of the Democratic National Convention and used my platform to bring this issue to light, and people were really upset at me because I was supposed to be there to like cheerlead everybody there and all the Democratic leaders, and instead I was pointing out the fact that we didn't have labeling of genetically engineered ingredients. And, you know, I was— I remember that was, you know, the point in time where I made my decision to not be a Democrat or Republican or or an independent or anybody at that point in time, I just said to myself, like, I am going to pick the candidate or the party or whoever based on my own principles and my own, like, thoughts about how they would lead this country, right? And it was a point in time that was really, I think, difficult for my family because I went from someone very, like, on one side side to now being critical thinking of all sides and the friendships and everybody that I had in terms of like that I'd built over the years that were like, wait a minute, you used to be this type of person and now you're critically thinking and you're like telling us what Obama's not doing. And like, you know, all of this stuff, even though I was someone who voted for him, you know, like it was this point in time that I realized that politicians aren't gonna be the ones that really change the way or the policies and the laws that I wanted to see changed. We had to do that ourselves as citizens and rise up and become grassroots. And so for me, I have been extremely jaded and not interested in listening and reading about political candidates since then. Yeah. And it's gotten really— it's gone from one extreme to the other. I haven't gone back to a balance. And so when you talk about politics, it just makes me cringe a little bit because no matter what happens, I'm not exactly confident in the systems that we have in place. In terms of who's getting elected and how they're getting elected, I'm not sure if I'm confident in the system, which is sad to say, but I'm not.

Yeah, that's hard. You know, I think that—

Just with the corruption that's involved.

Yeah, and I think that that's a word that I think when people think about politics, it's probably the first word right now that comes to people's minds is the word corruption. And so it's sad. Yeah, I just, you know, I've been trying to over the past few years as I've moved kind of from being, you know, predominantly in the health space and now really trying to think a little bit more about personal growth and leadership. You know, that's something I've studied so much. And so, looking at presidents, and one of the things I thought about is that, you know, it used to be that where whether it was a Republican or Democrat getting elected, I think most people had a degree of respect for who was ever in office. And now, it's mostly a sense of either hate or this sort of unhealthy adoration, sometimes even worship of certain people. And so I think it's just, it's gotten to be anyways very, very unhealthy. And so anyways, we can, you know, we can move on from this, but just to be, just, just to say, you know, I think that as going through this sort of pandemic, that was one of the things that I sort of opened my eyes. Like, I didn't realize that I went back and started reading about American history and the Constitution and different things and sort of learning about how originally each state was supposed to act as somewhat of a separate entity within the 50 states. That's why we're called the United States. There's 50 states. There's a level of sort of independence of each state. So it's always— it's interesting seeing, you know, as we saw the battle between Florida and even the federal government and sort of what was happening with mask mandates and everything else. It was just so interesting to, to kind of see. But I will say, I do think that You know, I do think that, you know, I told my mother-in-law this yesterday. I said, you know, I'm a little concerned that things have become so divisive that I said, this is how civil wars break out, you know, because you have such a level of sort of animosity towards both sides. And that's one of the things that I would say, even, you know, the place I try and be, I know you're in a very similar way, is that like, I just want the truth and I just want to tell people the truth. And I've even appreciated, you know, when you look at the people that are growing their platforms most rapidly online, I think it's the people that try and have the stance that you have and that I try to have too, of sort of like, we just want the truth and we want to speak the truth. And I don't really— I'm not really trying to take sides here. And the idea, you know, think about Joe Rogan. He's an example of that. Like, he's not trying to necessarily take a lot of sides. Russell Brand, I don't know that he's really trying to take a lot of sides. People would probably say someone like Jordan Peterson has decided to take the side on the right. But historically, he's always said he talked himself as a classic liberal, like for most of his career, up until things went so far left in certain arenas, he was actually seen considered himself.

So my point is, I think he's actually one of those people that I'm fascinated by. Like, I could hear— I could listen to him talk all day long. And if the friends of the past that I had on the Democratic Democratic Party ever even heard me say that, they would be like, what? What's wrong with you?

Right? Yeah.

But, but again, you don't have to like everything somebody says or what they believe in, right, to understand where they're coming from and what they're talking about. And it's just— I'm open to all these different new perspectives that I never was before.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. It's powerful. You know, one thing I want to, I want to, um, I wanted to ask you because, and this is for anybody who, and there are so many people, I think almost everybody is, gets in a place every few years where they feel like they're stuck. And I'm curious for yourself, you know, um, you know, what have, have you ever felt in the past, you know, even 20 years, like you were just stuck? You feel like I was at a plateau, I don't feel, you know, and it could have been in your relationship or career or something else, you felt like you were stuck and there was, there was something that you experienced or something that helped you experience a breakthrough?

Yeah, I mean, I would say it was that, it was that, that dark period that I talked about in terms of, you know, receiving all of the negative hate online. It made me not want to be online anymore, you know, it made me not want to, to take on these food companies and to do the next campaign, and it made me not want to write another book, and it made me not want to be a public figure anymore because what I was doing and the reason why I was in the news was to showcase what was happening at Subway, telling people about azodicarbonamide and the chemicals that are in Subway's bread. Why I was on TV was to talk about Kraft macaroni and cheese and how they were using artificial food dyes here in the United States, elsewhere and how I wanted that to change. But then when they made the focus on me as the person and after Time Magazine came up with that piece of being one of the most influential people on the internet, that's when the spotlight got on me as an individual. It was so hard because I didn't want it to be the spotlight on me. I wanted the spotlight to be on the food companies. But they wanted it to be on me because they wanted to attack me. And I just remember making the decision not to be part of the conversation anymore. I remember ABC News Nightline called me and they said, "Hey, we would like to interview you and we're going to have a debate between you and one of your enemies, really, critical haters online. We'd like to have this debate." on Nightline. And I was like, absolutely not. Click. You know, like, it was that— you know, it was like, yeah, okay, I could be famous and be on ABC Nightline, but it wasn't about that. I didn't want to become famous. I wanted to tell the truth about the food industry and tell people what's really going on. And so a lot of times when you're stuck in these situations, you think the right way out is to continue the fame and like to continue to do that thing, but it's actually sometimes taking a step back and saying— and looking at your values and saying, what's more important, right? And so that's what I had to do. And I had to take a break. I had to take a mental break from it all and turn off those Google alerts and make that decision. And then when I came out of that break is when I started writing Beating You Lies. And I feel like it's one of my one of my favorite books that I've written because it shows the playbook of how the food industry works. And I tell all the stories about what happened to me and how my Wikipedia page, I mean, I just think about my Wikipedia page, how there would be hawks on it, literally paid-for people that would literally watch what people were writing about me on my Wikipedia page to the point where one of the people that was paid to do this came and saw me event that I had at Costco signing books and told me that he was sorry that he was one of the people that would go and modify and make the Wikipedia page more critical of who I was in the public eye. Wow. And it was just this situation where taking that step back and looking at why I was doing what I was doing allowed me to become so much stronger and allowed me to make that next piece of work and to continue moving forward and eventually creating True Bonnie and now 2 cookbooks later. So it's sometimes just taking that pause, I think, is important.

Are you going to incorporate any lab-grown meat recipes in your new cookbook?

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. There's so many things that upset me about about the wave of the future, like how everyone has Beyond Meat on their menu items now. I mean, I go every year to this French little island in the French West Indies called St. Barts, and it has some of the best food in the world. And I started seeing Beyond Meat on these menus, and I'm like, what is going on? This is crazy. And there's so much money behind that company, and it's just complete manufactured garbage. Garbage. I'm so upset. I remember the first time I wrote about it, I got a call from the CEO, Ethan Brown, I think is his name. Anyways, he threatened to sue me and threatened me really hard on the phone. It was very interesting what he was trying to do, but I backed off because I'm like, "Shoot, he's funded by Bill Gates. I don't want to get on his bad side." At the time, I wasn't making any money doing Food Babe, so it was just like, I was just a nobody in a way when I was telling people the truth about when it was first invented. I just remember him doing that. Anyways, if he's listening, I remember that. I'm telling the truth now.

There you go.

Your product is garbage. No one should eat it. It's not healthy.

Yeah. I mean, both those, the vegan meat product or the vegan, quote unquote, meat meat products are just— when you look at them, they're just, you know, they're just terrible.

Even more concerning is the lab-grown meat, right? Like the stuff that— where they're taking chicken cells and like making chicken out of it, right?

Yeah. You know, I think it's going to be a while on that though. When I was doing this, when I, you know, I released a video a couple weeks ago on this, and basically it's, it's 5— here's the crazy part— it's 5 times worse for the environment because they have to emit so much carbon in order to to actually manufacture these stem cells for the chicken. And then there's just a lot of issues with it. I mean, again, the whole idea is it's better for the environment, but now they're like, well, it's worse for the environment, 5 to 25 times worse according to a study at UC Davis. But well, we're killing less animals, but you do have to kill some animals actually and get to get their stem cells to culture their meat. Anyways, I just— there's a, uh, yeah, they're both They're both terrible. You know, one of the things that I wanted to ask you about, too, as we think about, you know, I have some— there's a lot of people listen to the podcast who, you know, want to be more successful in their careers, but also their lives. And so, you know, you've done, it seems like, a great job being able to balance the sort of family life of being a mom and a wife, but also being a businesswoman and going out there and being a great business. What are some sort of staple habits you have in place that sort of allow you to be able to manage your time well, but also get the most important things done in your life?

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I have a very regimented kind of schedule of what I do every single day. And so in the morning, my kids are usually waking me up, which I want that to— I've been— that's something I've been wanting to work on where I get up before my kids, but it's just the way things have been.

The season of life.

It's the season of life, and I think it's going to change when where I can end up doing that. But since I'm still breastfeeding, it's kind of like the first thing that we do in the morning, and we're all laying down, and I'm half asleep, and so it just works. And, you know, I get up, I have my lemon water first thing in the morning, I have my breakfast, and then I go do my exercise. Like, having exercise every single day is so important to me. I've been really into lifting weights lately just because I'm getting older. I'm 44, and I just feel like when I'm lifting weights, like, everything just looks better. I feel better, I feel stronger, and I just know that I look better. And so it's just one of those things that I love to do. And I do like a little bit of cardio, and I do Pilates class too, but lifting weights lately has just been a really important thing that I've been focusing on. And I've noticed that doing less cardio and more kind of athletic weightlifting has been more beneficial to me in terms of, um, just feeling less fatigued and just able to keep up with my kids and, and all of that. So that's been great. And that, to me, like getting that hour or less in— sometimes it's less— um, has really been like my anti-anxiety medication. And for me, like, I am an overly anxious person in general, and if I don't take care of myself, if I'm not eating correctly and I'm not exercising, then I get super anxious. And then the only thing that can bring me out of that is acupuncture. And then even sometimes acupuncture doesn't work if I'm not really taking care of myself. So I have to do all those things in order to, like, feel really great. And so self-care is super important to me. Um, I typically tend to take I have lunch every single day with my kids. Um, you know, if my daughter's at school, then I'm having lunch with my son. But over the summer, I've been having lunch with them every single day. So we sit down and we have lunch together every single day, and we make— I make food. I start usually around 11:30 and I make their food. I sit down. By 12:30, they're done. My daughter's having alone time, my son's going for a nap. And during that nap time period of like that 2-hour period is when I get the majority of my work done, where I'm doing like the podcast with you right now, Josh, or I am, you know, doing the sit-down kind of, you know, concentration work or the filming that I need to do for a video. And that period of time is like when I'm like super focused. And because the house is quiet, you know, and nobody's making the loud noise, I know one child's sleeping, it's just, it's just the most magical time of the day because I can get so much done. Done. And I'm just like so much more productive than I normally am. And I do about an hour of work in the morning too, like after I work out, um, before lunch. But you know, around this time is when I get the majority of work done. Then my son wakes up, we play, we have snack, and then I'll try to do another hour of work right as I'm getting into starting to prep dinner. And I sit and I— we make dinner almost every single night. We rarely eat I like to eat out, but it's just one of those things is like, you know, the best foods are just that you make yourself. So we, you know, me and my husband will tandem cook. We'll cook together sometimes. Some nights he'll cook, some nights I'll cook. He's a great cook, which is great. And then, um, and then in the evening after the kids go to bed is when I do a little bit more work. And so I'll do some again when the kids are sleeping and it's silent, it's quiet. I can get a get a lot of things done. And that's a lot of times where I'll do that work where I go and listen to people that are inspiring me, or I want to learn about something, and I'll do that work then too.

So yeah, yeah, we have very similar rhythms. It's like first thing in the morning, you know, I, I try and get a little spiritual time, and then I work out, and then I eat something good, and then maybe it's a little time with the family, and then it's, you know, more of the sort of traditional work. Before I go to bed, it's about an hour. I do a lot of audiobooks books, you know, either while I'm working out or, or before bed. And so whether it's, again, Jordan Peterson or somebody else who I, who I respect and admire doing a podcast is, uh, a very similar thing. You know, one of the things that's really impacted my life in a big way, and I think there's more seasons of this, but it's, um, it's mentorship. And so having somebody who's sort of passing on their wisdom to me, you know, have you had an opportunity, or anyone in your life, that you felt like has been able to pass on their wisdom to you? And if so, what was maybe one thing that was really impactful that you had a mentor, uh, pass on to you? And while you're thinking about it, let me say this too. I found that— again, now I don't have a statistic on this— I think sometimes for women in the business world, it might be harder or, or less common to have, um, a mentor. I feel like I hear a little bit more from men about talking about, I had this mentor, than women. Not that both don't, but anyways, I just thought I'd bring up that sort of observation, is that maybe sometimes it's a little bit— might be a little bit harder.

Yeah, you know, I have a life coach and she's absolutely incredible. And one of the things that she has really helped me work on is the ability to dream and the ability to create your future with your dreams and what you want to see. And there is a guy that she follows the readings for and that she taught me about, and his name is Neville Goddard. I don't know if you've listened to any of his works. It's absolutely incredible what he's done. What he's, he's talking about is basically he believes believes that the Bible and God and everything that the Bible has kind of taught us— and it's absolutely— if you're really familiar with the Bible, I would really recommend going to listen to him because he takes kind of each verse of the Bible and translates it in a way that shows you that you are God, that you are actually living, breathing God, and that you can create your own reality with just imagining your own thoughts. And it's absolutely an incredible practice. And he says that the time, right, actually before you go to sleep, if you sit and you visualize what it actually feels to, to do your next goal or whatever you want to achieve in life, and you actually embody it and think about it in that way and meditate in that way, that it will actually come true. And that ability to do that that is what makes you godlike. And it's— he's got so much work. He's— I think he died in 1972 or something, but he has so much work that's been translated or put into audiobooks. And it's been one of those principles that's been hard to grasp because every time, For like example, you think of something negative about a person, you are actually creating that reality about that person. He wants you to take a step back and always recognize when you are thinking negatively about something. If you can recognize those thoughts and stop them before they happen and think of something positive and think about what you would want that person to be like in your life and to change that, then it will actually happen. It is almost like changing labels of people in your mind. Like, you know, if there's someone in your life that you have like a negative label to, like changing that to a positive label so that every time you think about that person, you think of that positive thing, and it starts to change the way they behave and the way you perceive them, and everything starts to change. And so she, from a, from a life coaching perspective, has really helped me realize that we can achieve our dreams if we just sit and imagine them and really focus on what it would feel like to achieve them. And he's got this audiobook that's called The Feeling Is the Secret, and it's getting into the feeling of really idolizing that wish that you have and letting that embody you. And it's absolutely fascinating. I can't believe you haven't heard of him. So I really want you to go listen to it.

Well, I've heard of this teaching, and by the way, yeah, I'd love to just, yeah, share some thoughts on it. So, so one, you know, it's, it's always hard to— I think for sometimes it's really challenging to sort of delineate between is he teaching what I would consider pantheism, or is he teaching more breaking down Christianity in its archetypal framework? And so basically it's this, is I think what, what what I would agree with and wouldn't agree with is I would agree with if he's saying we are created in the image of God, and so we have a divine nature. We have part of the— part of sort of this sort of nature of God in terms of being able to, um, create and impact. And we are, uh, you know, we are children of God. Now I would say that we're not made— we're not like, I would very much disagree with pantheism, which is sort of everything is God and we are all God. I would agree that we are not the exact nature of, as you know, God or that, or Jesus or the Holy Spirit, that exact same person. But in terms of being made in the image and the likeness of, I absolutely agree with this. And I love the, the proverb, as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he, which is very much part of what you're saying here, which is And by the way, there's some really good clinical studies on this. There was research done by Professor Rosenthal, and they actually ended up calling this the Rosenthal Effect. Now before this, it was called the Pygmalion Effect, which is— the studies were 100% what you're just saying. It was if you tell somebody you are capable of climbing the highest mountain, I mean, the chance of them is just absolutely astronomical of how much of their likelihood of actually doing that. And so they, they, they, um, and so they've done all these studies on people, and basically it's a cycle, the Pygmalion effect, which is, you know, you tell a kid, listen, you can be an Olympian, you can be an Olympic swimmer, whatever it is, and then start to realize and manifest in, in their, in their mind and be able to visualize it, see it, and they will start taking the actions in order to make that happen. So, so the studies just show, wow, this goes up astronomically if you're doing that. In fact, in this one of the studies, they took a group of kids in the— they took this group of kids and they told the teachers, these kids are all exceptional, like they have special giftings. And so the teachers then worked with these students and they ended up getting just, you know, these just incredibly high grades and achieving really great things. And then they say in the study is, no, these were just actually— these were the lowest level kids. They, some of them had learning disorders. They weren't very smart. And so, but anyways, to your point, I mean, this, this idea of the power of belief and even limiting beliefs, you know, this is something that's impacted my life in a huge way. When I was young, I thought I was not smart. I had ADHD. I was always the principal's office. I graduated high school, by the way, Bonnie, I almost didn't graduate. I got like a low 2.2, 2.3 GPA. Wow. And almost didn't get into college. Because I felt like my entire life— I got a teacher tell me once, like, Josh, you're not very smart. I don't think you'll, you'll get into college. And so I learned that I'm not smart. And then I had a teacher once tell me in college, in order to get into college, I had to take summer classes. And it was if I got above a 3.0, they were gonna let me in college. This is the University of Kentucky. So I said, okay, I'm gonna go. I'm getting, you know, 4.0. And I had an English teacher tell me, she said, Josh, I want to let you know, you you got the highest grade in the class, and have you ever thought— did you thought about being a writer or an English major? I was like, no. But I mean, literally, I call it like a memory transplant. Like, I started thinking so differently about myself. And I think about if she wouldn't have said that to me, like, I, I don't, I don't know where I would be. And so anyways, all that being said, I just— I'm resonating with that part of what you shared in terms of like what other people say about us, what we— the power that we have in speaking to our kids and the people around and the belief in them, it's just really big. And so, I'm curious, I mean, have you ever had like that experience where like maybe you had a limiting belief or something going on in life and just, you know, and something shifted and you started thinking differently to anyways?

Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think that's part of our mission as humans, like in terms of how do we, How do we eliminate those thoughts from our brain that keep us holding back from achieving our potential? And so that's such a good point about how we speak to our children. And I found myself trying to, to be more positive and not be so critical because I think about the critical nature of like my mother, for example. Like she just will come out with anything critical about anything. And so it's like, you know, in trying to eliminate that from my epigenetics and like try to determine that like, you know, I don't have to think that way too, even though that's what I heard for most of my life, right? And so it's definitely a challenge. You know, I printed out these affirmations that I started reading to my daughter as I was taking her to school every day. And I was like, you know, if we just do this, I read this every day as we're getting in the car. It's like 20 affirmations. It's like, "I believe you are strong. You're capable. You're courageous. You are a nice, kind girl." All of these things that just— it's a list of stuff. I thought, "What if I just read this to her every single day?" At first she was like, "Mom, why do we have to read this?" But then she started getting into it. I could tell it definitely made a difference in her demeanor and her confidence when she was at school.

Awesome. You know, one of the things that I, I've noticed about you, and I think a number of people are wired this way, is that you're a visionary, you know. And so I think that, you know, you have an ability to sort of see this is the future you want, whether it be goals or, again, you know, looking at a company like Kellogg, like you can see it. It's like, okay, they're removing these things like they're, you know, they're changing everything and now they're, you know, they're putting out, you know, collagen-based cereal, whatever it is, only with, you know, vegetables and fruits. So anyways, but, but, you know, when you see your life in 5, 10, 25 years, both your business and sort of your personal life, like, like what does the ideal look like for you? Or another way to put this, What would success look like for you in those areas?

Yeah, I've actually thought a lot about that lately. For me, really success for me right now has to do with my kids. How can I model and show them that whatever they want to do in life will have an impact, a positive impact on the world? I really want I want them to think about whatever career they choose to do, to think of it as something that would help change the world. And so I always try to share what I'm doing with them and share why we're doing the things we do. And I would just love them to pick a career or their life based on that. And so I'm I'm always trying to think about what kind of success can I create that I can spend the most time with my children. So how do I set up my business that way? How do I continue doing the work that I love to do but also spend time with them and teach them? Making this next cookbook with them was just a joy because it was a lot of cooking together. A lot of pictures together. And the writing part was, of course, alone. But it was just this wonderful thing that I included them in this, and they're the stars of the book. And how can I set up my life so that we can continue to travel the world? I find so much joy in showing my my family different places in the world that I've been. You know, my husband and I have been to over 50 countries, and so it's like, you know, I want to show my kids like everywhere I've been and like why I find wildlife so fascinating and why I love the ocean and like why I love swimming so much and like I love looking at fish under the water. And like I just want them to know all about the earth and all the different places. And like to me, success is like, like Having the ability to do all of that, but also provide for my family and be there for them. So that's what I think about. And when I think about the legacy that I want to leave, the day that I die, or if I die tomorrow, what I want to be said about me, I just want people to always remember that I I wanted everyone to be as healthy as they could be. And that's why I did the work that I did.

I love that.

I don't want anyone to feel like I used to feel.

Yeah. Yeah, well, I think you're going to live a really long time. I hope so. Yeah, that's good. And then I'll say too, when I think about Yuvani, again, I think in what you've already done in your time here and 44 years old, I think, you know, you have been able to in ways move mountains because, you know, the— in order— I mean, think about this. You were able to help Chick-fil-A change their ingredients. I mean, that's really— and that in part is affecting millions of lives now that people are not getting hormones every time they eat a chicken sandwich. I mean, it's really phenomenal. And there are so many other companies you've gone and have had a positive influence on. You've inspired so many people in terms of how you have been. So, you know, you've, you've done things the right way as well. You haven't gone and sort of bit back at people in a negative way. You've just really done things in sort of the, the right way. Again, ignoring the, you know, the slander and just sort of embracing the, the love in that way. So anyways, I just, you know, I have the highest respect for you and all these things you've done. And one of the last questions questions I want to ask you is, you know, um, I know, I know you and I have so much going on, and you especially, again, like, you're a mom, you have— there is a lot on your plate right now. And I know you've got the book, and that's something I'm sure you're super excited to release. What are some other things that you have coming up in the future that you're thinking, I'm, I'm excited, or you have going on now in the future, and you're like, I'm excited about this, you know?

I'm trying to figure that out, Josh. I'm really doing— writing a book and having it released into the world is a whole thing, right? You have to go through all the things to do to make sure people know to get it and to see it out there and to know that it's coming. And so I'm super focused on that. And I think about— What would I want to do that would continue this mission in a big way? I haven't figured that out yet. I'm trying to work through that in my mind. At Truvani, we have incredible products that are being developed all the time. I'm leading that product development in terms of the ingredients and the integrity of of those. And so that's super fun to see. And it's great to see how well that's doing. But I still— there's something still, something that I haven't figured out that I need to be doing. And I am exploring that right now. So it's something that I— you don't have to have all the answers, right?

Like, oh yeah, of course.

And this next The next year, it's funny, is because I came up with another topic for another cookbook, and my publisher was like, "Ah, I don't know. People aren't really going to buy that," or, "It's not going to sell that many copies. We're not so sure about it." They wanted to change it, and they wanted to change the direction of it. I just wasn't super passionate about it. I said, "What if I just take a break from writing books and I figure out what it is that I I need to be doing. And, and I'm hoping that those answers will just come to me through this process, but, um, I'm not sure yet.

So, well, whatever it is, I'm excited for— I'll be, I'll be, I'll be thinking about you with it, praying for you with it. And then if there's anything I can do to be a sounding board— and by the way, that's one of the things I've appreciated about our relationship is that, you know, it's been really, uh, really great being able to kind of go to each other for advice and thoughts and sharing because Many of you might know that both Vani and I run supplement companies. And if we've been in the space, both of us have been educators in the health space. And so, you know, sometimes when we get in positions of certain industries or leadership, sometimes there's not, you know, lonely might or might not be the right word, but sometimes you kind of feel like, okay, maybe someone doesn't understand exactly where I'm at. But it's been really good just being able to, you know, have you as a sounding board and share some advice and kind of where you're at in business over the years. And so I'm always appreciative about that. Just a quick story, you know, one of the things Vanya and I met, I'm trying to think, did we meet at that, at kind of like a mastermind out in California or was it the thing?

It was in, um, Stanford, Connecticut.

Okay. That one with my— okay. I remember that now. That's right. Um, and so anyways, you know, there was a group of people and And anyways, you know, one of the things I just, uh, I think, you know, you and I are both conscious of is there's a certain— we want to, we want to be around people that have really high-level values, people that are purpose-driven, people that want to, um, you know, are about family. And so anyways, I would just— so appreciated how you've really prioritized. You've done such an amazing job of this, is also saying like, I'm going to prioritize my family, uh, along with, with my career and doing it in such a great way. So again, Again, it's just been a pleasure being your friend.

Oh, well, thank you, Josh. I really do appreciate being connected to you in so many ways because, again, what you said, it's not really lonely. It's more like you're isolated in that, in what you're doing. We're in both the same, very similar positions in that we're thought leaders in the health space, but we also are running running companies too. And so there's a lot of tricky things that happen with that. And it's so nice to be able to just— to have you as a sounding board and to have you available as a friend to help me through those moments in time. And I just really appreciate that. So thank you. Yeah.

Well, hey, I want to let everybody know, Vani's got a cookbook coming out very soon, October 17th. And I want to encourage you to go out and get it. And if not, check out her other books too. I mean, they are fantastic. You can go to Amazon and just search Vani Hari. Check out her books, they're awesome. And, um, and also want to encourage you, follow Vani on social media. She's always posting great stuff. You can follow her on Instagram and Facebook and watch her videos on YouTube as well. And Vani, um, it's just great having you on and great, great seeing you.

Yeah, great to see you too, Josh. Thank you so much.

All right, everybody. Hey, thanks so much for listening to another episode of the Growth Lab. Each week we talk about the science behind how to grow yourself, your health, your wealth, your career, your relationships. And it's been so good hearing from Bonnie today and her share how she has really kept an incredible balance of her family and her career. She's been mission-minded, transforming the world in some really powerful ways. Hopefully you've learned some things on how you can be mission-driven and improve and grow your life as well. Thanks everybody. We'll be having another podcast next week.